Android Arc Piccolo vs Freeza

GSM123

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As per [mention]SuperSaiyan2[/mention]’s request, here’s a classic versus thread.

I thought I’d make something more innovative, but it’s been a while since a DB topic has gone past 5 pages. Anyways, who wins and why? My money’s on :rape
 

Ultimate Cell

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Why did you decide to open up this can of worms :wtf Anyways my money on Piccolo.
 

Pyro

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Since the Base Saiyans didn't get past Freeza, it's difficult to believe Piccolo did at this point in the series either.
 

GSM123

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I honestly don’t understand why Piccolo wins, let alone one shots. There’s no evidence for it as far as I’m aware, and he and Kami even think Freeza being one shoted by Trunks is a big deal.
 

Captain Cadaver

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
I honestly don’t understand why Piccolo wins, let alone one shots. There’s no evidence for it as far as I’m aware, and he and Kami even think Freeza being one shoted by Trunks is a big deal.
Piccolo states he didn't lack confidence in his abilities, showing that by his own admission he can hold his own against threats capable of stomping SSJ Trunks. You could say he expected to only act as support, but that makes little sense when that'd be admission that he was planning on having Goku primarily lead the charge and take on both #19 and #20 for the most part, which isn't really that feasible.
There is also his line about perhaps having become stronger than he realised in response to his initial thought at #19 and #20 being weaker than he thought. Along with that, we have Kuririn stating "he's not even a Super Saiyan" as a way of conveying that Piccolo is on a similar level to them, with it being important to mention even the weakest SSJ Kuririn saw being capable of making short work of Freeza. If the audience weren't meant to see Piccolo's powers as being on a similar level to the SSJ trio, then leaving things at #19 and #20 being overestimated would have sufficed.

As for Freeza being treat as a big deal, this seems to be more in the idea of his previous legacy in the eyes of the characters and the audience rather than his power being so great. Kuririn also brings up Cell surpassing Freeza as a benchmark for wondering if Goku is excited or scared, despite Freeza's level being something Goku is far above at that point.
 

GSM123

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[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Piccolo states he didn't lack confidence in his abilities, showing that by his own admission he can hold his own against threats capable of stomping SSJ Trunks.

So did Tenshinhan, and nobody here thinks he can take on Freeza.

Said confidence was kinda lacking when it actually came the time to face the Androids. He'd rather play possum than take on them. It's unlikely he can do it by himself.

You could say he expected to only act as support, but that makes little sense when that'd be admission that he was planning on having Goku primarily lead the charge and take on both #19 and #20 for the most part, which isn't really that feasible.

Goku did ask him and Tien to get out of the way and wasn't even questioned in his choice, so it seems very likely that Piccolo wasn't planning on taking a major role in the fight.

There is also his line about perhaps having become stronger than he realised in response to his initial thought at #19 and #20 being weaker than he thought.[/quote]

He also said the Androids might be weaker than they expected, so that statement isn't exactly conclusive.

Along with that, we have Kuririn stating "he's not even a Super Saiyan" as a way of conveying that Piccolo is on a similar level to them, with it being important to mention even the weakest SSJ Kuririn saw being capable of making short work of Freeza. If the audience weren't meant to see Piccolo's powers as being on a similar level to the SSJ trio, then leaving things at #19 and #20 being overestimated would have sufficed.

Piccolo is never again compared to a Super Saiyan until after he merges with Kami, though. The fact it's Kuririn himself saying he finally rose to the level of a Super Saiyan sounds like he changed his mind about his earlier statement:


I believe Kuririn only compared Piccolo to a Super Saiyan because of what he saw - Piccolo beating someone who supposedly only a Super Saiyan could beat, akin to how Kaioshin held Vegeta in a higher regard than SSJ2 Vegeta because he smacked Pui Pui around.

As for Freeza being treat as a big deal, this seems to be more in the idea of his previous legacy in the eyes of the characters and the audience rather than his power being so great. Kuririn also brings up Cell surpassing Freeza as a benchmark for wondering if Goku is excited or scared, despite Freeza's level being something Goku is far above at that point.

There's a reason Freeza's legacy is maintained though. Freeza possesses something that #19 and #20 didn't, and that makes him more important than them. Given we're talking about a Shonen manga, it's only natural such thing is power.

Goku never fought anyone stronger than Freeza before though, so it makes sense for Kuririn to use Freeza to hype Cell. Kuririn's statement might even imply Piccolo is not on Freeza's level, since he sparred with Piccolo for years but someone stronger than Freeza is a big deal still.
 

ahill1

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So did Tenshinhan, and nobody here thinks he can take on Freeza.
Shin Kihoho. Get your facts straight.
Said confidence was kinda lacking when it actually came the time to face the Androids. 
He didn't lack shit.
so it seems very likely that Piccolo wasn't planning on taking a major role in the fight.
Headcanon.
Piccolo is never again compared to a Super Saiyan until after he merges with Kami, though. 
He was before by Krillen.
believe Kuririn only compared Piccolo to a Super Saiyan because of what he saw 
Moar headcanon. Come back when you have something solid, kid.
Freeza possesses something that #19 and #20 didn't
A thick cock?
since he sparred with Piccolo for years but someone stronger than Freeza is a big deal still.
Freeza > #17 and 18. Topkek.
 

Ultimate Cell

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Heres the statement where Krillin made the comparison if anyone is wondering
0152-012.png
 

Captain Cadaver

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
So did Tenshinhan, and nobody here thinks he can take on Freeza.
Tenshinhan never said anything about having confidence in his abilities when it comes to fighting #19 and #20 and to assume Piccolo planned on being nothing but support like the humans would be pretty out of character for him.
Also, Ten was far more sceptical on the existence of the Artificial Humans in general, whereas Piccolo seemed far more believing in Trunks' validity.

Said confidence was kinda lacking when it actually came the time to face the Androids. He'd rather play possum than take on them. It's unlikely he can do it by himself.
Because going up against a foe he's been told surpasses everything that came before head on is far less intelligent than being cautious against an opponent he can't even sense, especially when he didn't have a solid grasp on the limits of their power just yet.

Goku did ask him and Tien to get out of the way
Immediately following up by explaining "I'm the one they want" so it being because Piccolo is incapable wouldn't be strictly correct.

He also said the Androids might be weaker than they expected, so that statement isn't exactly conclusive.
Definitely seems like a case of initial thoughts vs conclusion. Again, there'd be no point in adding the "stronger than we realised" line if overestimation was purely the reason for Piccolo being able to tool #20.

Piccolo is never again compared to a Super Saiyan until after he merges with Kami, though.
Irrelevant when he was still compared.

The fact it's Kuririn himself saying he finally rose to the level of a Super Saiyan sounds like he changed his mind about his earlier statement:
He never said that though. The most he said was calling Piccolo's fusion him becoming a Super Namekian, which was more of a way of saying he had a massive boost in power rather than him being on the level of the SSJs (which is incorrect when he had confidence both before and after Piccolo did so that he would surpass the SSJs).

There's a reason Freeza's legacy is maintained though. Freeza possesses something that #19 and #20 didn't, and that makes him more important than them.
Indeed. He was a main villain who killed several notable characters, had major effect on Goku/Vegeta's history and pushed Goku into gaining a new transformation.
Taopaipai was also treat in high regard at the 22nd TB, despite all evidence pointing to the likes of Chappa being above him, and Kuririn used his reputation as the basis of him being concerned for Tenshinhan rather than him oneshotting Chaozu.

Given we're talking about a Shonen manga, it's only natural such thing is power.
Main villains in Shonen who have an overbearing impact on the plot are often treat in higher regard than lesser villains who succeed them. For example, Hokuto no Ken having Shin, Rei and Souther treat amongst his greatest rivals in the Shura Arc despite Falco and Han surpassing them, or Arlong being used as a benchmark in the Fishman Island Arc of One Piece despite having been fodder for a long time. This makes sense because these rivals or villains had a personal impact on the characters and their growth either as a person or in their power and, thus, them being treat in high regard long after becoming fodder makes sense, much the same as why Freeza is constantly brought up long after his death compared to #19 and #20.
 

Pinocchimon

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Ultimate Cell said:
Why did you decide to open up this can of worms :wtf Anyways my money on Piccolo.

He secretly hopes for Freezasmite to come back to forum
 

Pyro

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Where is Tenshinhan's confidence against the androids? He showed up, sure, but he later admitted he utterly useless and only wanted to stick around to see the androids get defeated.
 

ahill1

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Pyro said:
Where is Tenshinhan's confidence against the androids? He showed up, sure, but he later admitted he utterly useless and only wanted to stick around to see the androids get defeated.

Tenshinhan stated he left his little buddy behind because he couldn't keep up.
 

Pyro

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ahill1 said:
Pyro said:
Where is Tenshinhan's confidence against the androids? He showed up, sure, but he later admitted he utterly useless and only wanted to stick around to see the androids get defeated.

Tenshinhan stated he left his little buddy behind because he couldn't keep up.

So Tenshinhan could keep up? :mikey
 

GSM123

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[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Tenshinhan never said anything about having confidence in his abilities when it comes to fighting #19 and #20 and to assume Piccolo planned on being nothing but support like the humans would be pretty out of character for him.
Also, Ten was far more sceptical on the existence of the Artificial Humans in general, whereas Piccolo seemed far more believing in Trunks' validity.

He said he left Chaozu behind because he didn't think he could keep up, so unless Tenshinhan is being hypocritical, he wouldn't have come himself if he didn't find it worth it.

It was pretty out of character when he wanted Gohan to finalize Nappa and willingly put himself on a supporting role along with Kuririn then, right?

Yamcha was the one skeptical about their existence, Tenshinhan never doubted Trunks' words.

Because going up against a foe he's been told surpasses everything that came before head on is far less intelligent than being cautious against an opponent he can't even sense, especially when he didn't have a solid grasp on the limits of their power just yet.

Then how can Piccolo claim he's confident is he doesn't even have a solid idea of their power?

The Androids aren't exactly supposed to "surpass everything" - Trunks did claim Goku had a shot against them, so it's not a shot in the dark.

Immediately following up by explaining "I'm the one they want" so it being because Piccolo is incapable wouldn't be strictly correct.

That's not my point, which you left out. Piccolo didn't even question Goku's request, as if he didn't really mind taking a minor role in the fight.

Definitely seems like a case of initial thoughts vs conclusion. Again, there'd be no point in adding the "stronger than we realised" line if overestimation was purely the reason for Piccolo being able to tool #20.

Not really. Those he's fighting were two Red Ribbon Artificial Humans who appeared in the time and location Trunks gave, ready to kill Goku. For Piccolo to be capable of beating one of them, he either underestimated himself before or they overestimated these Androids. As per later statements, the later is the case.

There'd be no point in even wondering if Piccolo were so strong. In fact, it's impossible for him to have grown too strong, as the Androids were supposed to be a deadly match for the Super Saiyans as per Trunks' word, and Piccolo easily clobbered one of them. He's definitely overestimating himself trying to find an answer as to why things played out so differently.

Irrelevant when he was still compared.

Not at all. Kuririn claims Piccolo's like a Super Saiyan, Piccolo does a super power up, and Kuririn says that now Piccolo is like a Super Saiyan? Doesn't compute. It's like saying 5x2 is still a 5. One of the two statements got to be false.

He never said that though. The most he said was calling Piccolo's fusion him becoming a Super Namekian, which was more of a way of saying he had a massive boost in power rather than him being on the level of the SSJs (which is incorrect when he had confidence both before and after Piccolo did so that he would surpass the SSJs).

He didn't only call him a "Super Namekian", he also compared him to the Super Saiyans:
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P11.7
Kuririn: “If Goku and the others are Super Saiyans, then Piccolo will be a Super Namekian.”


It's certainly putting him on the league of the Super Saiyans, something that's redundant if he had already been on their league.

Indeed. He was a main villain who killed several notable characters, had major effect on Goku/Vegeta's history and pushed Goku into gaining a new transformation.
Taopaipai was also treat in high regard at the 22nd TB, despite all evidence pointing to the likes of Chappa being above him, and Kuririn used his reputation as the basis of him being concerned for Tenshinhan rather than him oneshotting Chaozu.
Main villains in Shonen who have an overbearing impact on the plot are often treat in higher regard than lesser villains who succeed them. For example, Hokuto no Ken having Shin, Rei and Souther treat amongst his greatest rivals in the Shura Arc despite Falco and Han surpassing them, or Arlong being used as a benchmark in the Fishman Island Arc of One Piece despite having been fodder for a long time. This makes sense because these rivals or villains had a personal impact on the characters and their growth either as a person or in their power and, thus, them being treat in high regard long after becoming fodder makes sense, much the same as why Freeza is constantly brought up long after his death compared to #19 and #20.

These are different situations, though. Tao's case is Roshi and Tsuru (Who didn't see Goku vs Chappa, mind you) being surprised Goku defeated Tao, rather than using him as a measure stick. It's also possible Tao in a all or nothing fight is more of a threat than Chappa in a tournament settling with rules, given he's a trained assassin with no scrupulous. The example from Hokuto no Ken is the maintance of an old rivalry, akin to how Vegeta still saw surpassing as his ultimate goal in spite of Gohan surpassing them both.

Freeza's being used as a benchmark to the new foes, with statements like "Even the Super Saiyans, who can beat Freeza, can't beat the Androids". The memory of how much of a challenge Freeza was isn't relevant if he isn't one anymore. It'd be like if Kami said "Even Vegeta, who's far stronger than Nappa who killed you was powerless".
 

VampireWicked

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I think Frieza would kill him.

Android20 wasn't Final Form Frieza level neither was Android19 & Base Vegeta at 30,000 was nowhere near Base Goku's 3Million on Namek, who in turn was nowhere near 50% Final Form Frieza at 60Million.

But with 3years training Vegeta makes up the difference & goes from a Base of 30,000 & gains a Base PowerLevel in the range of say 3Million+ with SuperSaiyan PoweerLevel say 150Million+

SuperSaiyan Vegeta completely owns Android19.
2uX9Q9U.gif

By the looks of it both Android19 & Android20 are equal in power? And could be maybe in the range of 50% Final Form Frieza, PowerLevel of 60Million.


Piccolo (merged with Nail): a PowerLevel over 1,000,000
Piccolo in those 3yrs would have to have gained 70Million.

Piccolo seems to have gained the most without Kami fusion, but I don't see him 120Million.
 

Pinocchimon

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Piccolo, while not being as powerful as super saiyans is still very powerful in his own right. He pwns frieza

Unless we are talking about Freezasmite's version, then he loses
 

DannyLaRocca

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Idk this seems pretty simple from reading the comic.

SSJ Goku (Sick) > SSJ Goku (Yardrat)

Tenshinhan states this and Piccolos not impressed says Goku should be way stronger.

Keeping this in mind lets remember #19 is not one shotted by SSJ Goku (Sick) who according to Tenshinhan is > SSJ Goku Yardrat.

Keeping this in mind #19 was not one shotted by SSJ Goku (Yardrat). He took a large amount of hits and seemed fine. I'd give #19 (Pre) like 75% of SSJ Goku Yardrat minimal (remember according to Frieza Saga 18,000 Cui vs 24,000 Vegeta is a one shot).

This means lets remember SSJ Trunks >>>> Mecha Frieza >= SSJ Goku Namek (Frieza said he could beat Goku possibly and he brings Kingcold as reinforcements...so its close but Frieza is stronger just taking a chance).

Pretty sure SSJ Trunks could 2-3 Shot Mecha Frieza. SSJ Sick Goku is way stronger then this. So given this SSJ Sick Goku who is superior to Yardrat Goku can't one shot #19. And Yardat Goku >> Trunks (Mecha Frieza).

Given this it seems that #19 Pre is at least > SSJ Trunks (Mecha Frieza).

Seems pretty obvious to me based on the manga IMO.

Also other evidence includes Piccolo stating that (paraphrasing) that they were perhaps to strong for the Androids. This seems to imply Piccolo thinks expected Androids > SSJ Goku Yardrat given that they well defeated them lol (Vegeta and Trunks).

Also don't forget Piccolo is confident in going up against the Androids. This is a power known to dwarf SSJ Goku Yardrat and SSJ Trunks Mecha Frieza. So for that to occur Piccolo has got to be > Frieza.

Lets also not forget Krillin said Piccolo = as strong as a super saiyan.

Seems obvious at least to me Piccolo is a beast in the Androids and absolutely destroy Frieza or SSJ Namek Goku. Dwarfs them in power. Only objection seems to be disagreement with massive gaps. I mean the characters are as strong as the plot determines. If it was up to logic not Toriyama the Humans would never have surpassed Piccolo Daimao (who going by DB should be like 10x Tensinhan in the 22nd Budokai if not more) much less Raditz. People need to understand its about plot/what the author decides, not about rationality.

If rationality were involved again 23rd Budokai Tenshinhan should be vastly inferior to Piccolo Daimao.

I also echo basically what Captain Cadiver has stated in relation to this topic.
 

GSM123

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DannyLaRocca said:
Tenshinhan states this and Piccolos not impressed says Goku should be way stronger.

What do you think about the full statement?

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…


Piccolo says both that Goku is near and nowhere near full power... What do you make of that?

Seems obvious at least to me Piccolo is a beast in the Androids and absolutely destroy Frieza or SSJ Namek Goku. Dwarfs them in power. Only objection seems to be disagreement with massive gaps. I mean the characters are as strong as the plot determines. If it was up to logic not Toriyama the Humans would never have surpassed Piccolo Daimao (who going by DB should be like 10x Tensinhan in the 22nd Budokai if not more) much less Raditz. People need to understand its about plot/what the author decides, not about rationality.

If rationality were involved again 23rd Budokai Tenshinhan should be vastly inferior to Piccolo Daimao.

I also echo basically what Captain Cadiver has stated in relation to this topic.

It's not about thinking it's ludicrous, it's about whether it's implied or not. In Tenshinhan's case, he's specifically stated and shown to have strength and speed comparable to that of Piccolo Daimao and Kid Goku, and also had the means to do so, having trained with Karin alongside the others. I won't get much into why I think Piccolo is weak, but you can read my debate with CC on the last page if you're interested.

Also since you mentioned power is determined by plot, I'd like to point out the author of such plot has expressed he'd constantly rationalize power gains and struggle to keep the story going:
3dmxIj.jpg
 

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