Androids Saga ~ Majin Boo Saga Battle Powers

[Pakl]

Cell arc

The History of Trunks

Future Piccolo
at time of death
full power : 3,700,000

Future Vegeta
at time of death
base : 3,800,000
Super Saiyan : 190,000,000

Future Son Gohan
~ base : 3,500,000
~ Super Saiyan : 175,000,000
post arm amputation & training
~ base : 4,400,000
~ Super Saiyan : 220,000,000

Future Trunks
age 14
~ base : 80,000
~ Super Saiyan : 4,000,000
age 17/post training after Gohan's death (3 years)
~ base : 4,700,000
~ Super Saiyan : 235,000,000

Future Android #18
~ full power : 450,000,000 (infinitely)

Future Android #17
~ Less than half power : 190,000,000 (infinitely)
~ full power : 475,000,000 (infinitely)

Freeza's return & The mysterious youth

Yamcha
post
~ full power : 52,000

Kuririn
post
~ full power : 82,000

Tenshinhan
post
~ full power : 115,000

Son Gohan
post sedentary study time (1 year & 260 days)
~ full power : 650,000

Piccolo
post Earth training (1 year & 260 days)
~ full power : 3,150,000

Vegeta
post Earth and space training (1 year & 260 days)
~ full power : 3,600,000

Future Trunks
~ extremely suppressed : 5
~ base : 4,700,000
~ Super Saiyan : 235,000,000

Son Goku
post planet Yardrat & space training (1 year & 260 days)
~ base : 5,400,000
~ Super Saiyan : 270,000,000

Freeza
post cybernetic upgrade and training
~ Mecha form (3%) : 4,800,000
~ Mecha form (100%) : 160,000,000

King Cold
~ full power : 100,000,000

Battle with The Androids

Yamcha
Androids preparation training (3 years)
~ full power : 600,000

Kuririn
Androids preparation training (3 years)
~ full power : 1,500,000

Tenshinhan
Androids preparation training w/ Chaozu (3 years)
~ full power : 2,000,000

Son Gohan
Androids preparation training w/ Goku & Piccolo (3 years)
base : 3,500,000

Son Goku
Androids preparation training w/ Piccolo and Gohan (3 years)
~ base : 9,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (sick initial) : 300,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (full power) : 475,000,000

Piccolo
Androids preparation training w/ Goku & Gohan (3 years)
~ suppressed : 8,350,000
~ full power : 360,000,000

Future Trunks
Androids preparation training in Future (1-3 years)
~ base : 8,100,000
~ Super Saiyan : 405,000,000

Vegeta
post Androids preparation training (3 years)
~ base : 9,500,000
~ Super Saiyan : 475,000,000

Android #20 (Dr. Gero)
post Android conversion
~ max power : 235,000,000
post ki adsorptions
~ max power : 255,000,000

Android #19
~ max power : 205,000,000
post ki absorptions
~ max power : 307,000,000

Android #18
~ max power : 675,000,000 (infinitely)

Android #17
~ max power : 7650,000,000 (infinitely)

The Reunion

Kami-sama
~ full power : 300

Piccolo
~ full power : 360,000,000
post re-merged with Kami-sama
Kamiccolo
~ full power : 775,000,000

The Ultimate Android : Cell

Kamiccolo
~ weighted : 720,000,000

Cell
post 4 years evolution / hatching
~ 1st form (arrival) : 500,000,000

The quest for perfection

Kamiccolo
~ full power : 775,000,000

Android #17
~ max power : 765,000,000 (infinitely)

Android #16
~ max power : 1,500,000,000 (infinitely)

Cell
post mass humans absorbed
~ 1st form (full power) : 1,550,000,000
post Android #17 absorption
~ 2nd form (initial) : 3,350,000,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power : 2,000,000

Android #18
~ max power : 675,000,000 (infinitely)

Hour of decision

Future Trunks
post 1st year Room of Spirit and Time training w/ Vegeta
~ base : 70,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 3,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2nd Grade : 7,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3rd Grade : 21,000,000,000

Vegeta
post 1st year Room of Spirit and Time training w/ Future Trunks
~ base : 75,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 3,750,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2nd Grade : 7,500,000,000
~ Fiinal Flash: 26,250,000,000

Cell
~ 2nd form (initial) : 3,350,000,000
~ 2nd form (full power) : 4,850,000,000
post Android #18 absorption
~ Perfect form (#16 reading) : 6,750,000,000
~ Perfect form ("warming up") : 16,700,000,000
~ buff Perfect Cell (suppressed) : 27,900,000,000

10 days peace

Son Goku
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training w/ Gohan

~ Mastered Super Saiyan (resting) : 15,750,000,000
~ Mastered Super Saiyan (50%) : 31,500,000,000

The Cell Games

Z Senshi humans
~ Same as Android saga

Android #16
post repair by Briefs family
~ full power : 1,500,000,000

Kamiccolo
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ full power : 15,500,000,000

Future Trunks
post 2nd year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base : 770,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 38,500,000,000

Vegeta
post 2nd year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base : 820,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 41,000,000,000

Son Goku
~ base : 1,260,000,000
~ Mastered Super Saiyan (warm up) : 15,750,000,000
~ Mastered Super Saiyan (100%) : 63,000,000,000

Son Gohan
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training w/ Goku
~ base : 1,620,000,000
~ Mastered Super Saiyan (suppressed) : 20,250,000,000
~ Mastered Super Saiyan (full power) : 81,000,000,000
~ Mastered Super Saiyan (slight anger) : 94,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 (harnessed rage) : 324,000,000,000

Cell
~ Perfect form ("warming up") : 16,700,000,000
~ Perfect form (powered up) : 71,000,000,000
~ Perfect form (pu w/ "serious speed") : 83,000,000,000
~ Perfect form (full power) : 194,000,000,000
~ buff Perfect Cell (full power) : 250,000,000,000
post Android #18 regurgitation
~ 2nd form : 4,850,000,000
post self destruction zenkai
~ Perfect form ("Super Perfect") : 303,000,000,000

Cell Juniors {7}
~ full power : 44,000,000,000 {each}

Free the Future

Future Trunks
~ Super Saiyan : 38,500,000,000

Future Android #18
~ full power : 450,000,000 (infinitely)
Future Android #17
~ full power : 475,000,000 (infinitely)

Future Cell
post mass humans
~ 1st form : 1,000,000,000

Majin Buu arc

25th Budokai

Mr. Satan
~ full power : 7

Videl
~ full power : 8

Spopovich
~ full power : 12

Yamu
~ full power : 13

Android #18
~ full power : 675,000,000 (infinitely)

Kibit
~ full power : 135,000,000

Son Goten
~ base : 600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 30,000,000,000

Trunks
~ base : 640,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 32,000,000,000

Kamiccolo
post off and on maintenance training (7 years)
~ full power : 18,500,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power : 1,350,000,000

Son Gohan
post long period inactivity (7 years)
~ Super Saiyan : 60,750,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 243,000,000,000

Spaceship Confrontations & The Long Awaited Rematch

Kibit
~ full power : 135,000,000

Pocus
~ full power : 200,000

Yakon
~ full power : 2,200,000,000

Kamiccolo
~ full power : 18,500,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power : 1,350,000,000

Son Gohan
~ base : 1,215,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (full power) : 60,750,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 243,000,000,000

Dabura
~ full power : 70,000,000,000

Vegeta
post Earth and gravity training (7 years)
~ base : 1,540,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 77,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 308,000,000,000
post Majin power up
~ Super Saiyan : 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 400,000,000,000

Son Goku
post afterlife training (7 years)
~ base : 2,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 400,000,000,000

The Hatching

Son Goten
~ base : 600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 30,000,000,000

Trunks
~ base : 64,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 32,000,000,000

Kamiccolo
~ full power : 18,500,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power : 1,350,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan : 60,750,000,000
----- Kamehameha * : 85,500,000,000

Dabura
~ full power : 70,000,000,000

Majin Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 400,000,000,000
----- Final Explosion : 1,350,000,000,000

Majin Buu
Dai Kaioshin & South Kaioshin absorbed
~ Fat (initial) : 202,000,000,000
~ Fat (power up) : 480,000,000,000
~ Fat (full power) : 1,200,000,000,000

Havoc

Son Goten
~ base : 600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 30,000,000,000

Trunks
~ base : 640,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 32,000,000,000

Kamiccolo
~ full power : 18,500,000,000

Son Goku
~ base : 2,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 400,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 : 1,600,000,000,000

Trunks and Goten Metamorian fusion
Gotenks
~ base : 36,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 1,800,000,000,000

Majin Buu
~ Fat (full power) : 1,200,000,000,000

Kaioshin's faraway planet

Kibit
~ full power : 135,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power : 1,350,000,000

Son Goku
~ base : 2,000,000,000

Son Gohan
~ base : 1,215,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (full power) : 60,750,000,000
post Zeta Sword training
~ base : 2,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (full power) : 120,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 (rage) : 480,000,000,000

Fusion

Son Goten
post 2 weeks Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base : 690,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 34,500,000,000

Trunks
post 2 weeks Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base : 720,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 36,000,000,000

Kamiccolo
~ full power : 18,500,000,000

Vegeta
~ base : 2,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 100,000,000,000

Son Goku
~ base : 2,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 : 1,600,000,000,000

Gotenks
post 2 weeks Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base : 54,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 2,700,000,000,000.
----- Super Ghost Kamikaze * : 6,750,000,000,000 {each}
~ Super Saiyan 3 : 43,200,000,000,000

Son Gohan
post Elder Kaioshin's potential unlocked
~ Ultimate : 60,000,000,000,000

Goku and Vegeta Porta fusion
Vegetto
~ base : 12,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 600,000,000,000,000
----- candy form : 600,000,000,000,000

Majin Buu
~ Fat (full power) : 1,200,000,000,000
Evil released
~ Fat (Good full power) : 480,000,000,000
~ Evil (Bad full power) : 720,000,000,000
post Evil Buu absorbing/eating Fat Buu
~ Super (suppressed) : 8,000,000,000,000
~ Super (full power) : 40,000,000,000,000
post SSJ3 Gotenks & Kamiccolo absorption
~ Super (Buutenks) : 83,218,500,000,000
post Gotenks defusing
~ Super (Buucollo) : 40,019,910,000,000
post Ultimate Gohan absorption
~ Super (Buuhan) : 100,019,910,000,000

Kid Buu

Vegeta
~ base : 2,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 400,000,000,000

Son Goku
~ base : 2,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 400,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 : 1,600,000,000,000

Majin Buu
removal of all influence
~ Buff : 53,400,000,000,000
~ Kid : 1,560,000,000,000


End of Z


Mr. Satan
post 10 years of aging
~ full power : 6.5

Mr. Buu
~ Good : 480,000,000,000

Uub
Kid Buu reincarnated
~ enraged : 1,560,000,000,000

Son Goku
post 10 years training
~ base : 20,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 1,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 4,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 : 16,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Ultimate : 60,000,000,000,000,000

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This is pretty good. The Cell Saga numbers are almost the same as mine, but from the CG onwards it’s different cuz I have Base>Piccolo and SSJ2 = 2x. Just a couple questions:

1) Future Vegeta > 2 Arms Future Gohan? Shouldn’t Gohan be stronger since he shows up to the Androids to fight them?

2) Why is Pui Pui so weak? You have Base > Kaioshin, so why not Pui Pui > Kaioshin?

@FeatsofPower what do you think?

 

[Pakl]

This is pretty good. The Cell Saga numbers are almost the same as mine, but from the CG onwards it’s different cuz I have Base>Piccolo and SSJ2 = 2x. Just a couple questions:

1) Future Vegeta > 2 Arms Future Gohan? Shouldn’t Gohan be stronger since he shows up to the Androids to fight them?

2) Why is Pui Pui so weak? You have Base > Kaioshin, so why not Pui Pui > Kaioshin?

@FeatsofPower what do you think?

Because Vegeta was already likely at least as strong as Goku was vs Freeza during the Trunks Arc so that's how it scales me.

Puipui is leagues below the Base Saiyans. I still have Kaioshin in the base Saiyans tier. Though, I'm thinking of having him somewhat stronger than the Base Saiyans. Not so sure. Any other concern?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Puipui is leagues below the Base Saiyans. I still have Kaioshin in the base Saiyans tier. Though, I'm thinking of having him somewhat stronger than the Base Saiyans. Not so sure. Any other concern?

Kaioshin thinks he needs help from the Saiyans to beat the likes of Pui Pui and Babidi doesn't think Kaioshin can do anything to stop him. I'd say Pui Pui > Kaioshin, even if just by a little.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Kaioshin thinks he needs help from the Saiyans to beat the likes of Pui Pui

A Kaioshin who has already admitted inferiority to the Saiyans as well.

Babidi doesn't think Kaioshin can do anything to stop him.

Kaioshin is a complete non factor and isn't suggested to do anything to be able to stop Pui Pui from wrecking all 3 Saiyans.

I'd say Pui Pui > Kaioshin, even if just by a little.

Pui Pui 150
Estimated Saiyans 100
Kaioshin 75
Piccolo 50

This is what makes sense to me.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You know I half agree with you here Feats. I think I said before what I disagree with you is that you're leaning more towards Babidi's side, and he was the farthest from the truth there. Babidi is expecting a slaughter, but Kaioshin is expecting a fight. 1.5x is anything but a fight with 3 guys. You can't say Shin himself is evening the scales, because you just called him a non factor.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Babidi is expecting a slaughter, but Kaioshin is expecting a fight.

Where does Kaioshin say he's expecting a fight?

1.5x is anything but a fight with 3 guys.

Babidi walks away from the fight and comes back a couple minutes later, shocked to find out Pui Pui hasn't killed them all. He'd need at least a 1.5x advantage to do that in that amount of time.

You can't say Shin himself is evening the scales, because you just called him a non factor.

Shin is a complete non-factor in Babidi and Dabura's mind. Him willing to help doesn't mean he is a factor.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Where does Kaioshin say he's expecting a fight?

The fact he showed up? You think he's just handing Babidi free energy on purpose?

Babidi walks away from the fight and comes back a couple minutes later, shocked to find out Pui Pui hasn't killed them all. He'd need at least a 1.5x advantage to do that in that amount of time.

Shin is a complete non-factor in Babidi and Dabura's mind. Him willing to help doesn't mean he is a factor.

But is that what Kaioshin thinks? Why are you siding with the guy who's wrong at every turn? Babidi said he could take Kaioshin himself, but he died to Piccolo and in Trunks' timeline he gets his ass saved by Dabra. He doesn't even know how strong the Saiyans are (He just vaguely calls them "marvelous energy") how his own Kili Meter works! What does this guy know? What does his flawed opinion bring to the table?

 

[FeatsofPower]

The fact he showed up? You think he's just handing Babidi free energy on purpose?

Kaioshin's energy cannot be used. Neither can Kibitos.

But is that what Kaioshin thinks? Why are you siding with the guy who's wrong at every turn?

Kaioshin seems to confirm quite a lot of Badibi and Dabura's thinking. It's not a perfect representation, but it's clear that Babidi, Dabura, and Kaioshin all generally agree on most things, and the Saiyans have a completely different viewpoint that turns out to be the accurate one.

Babidi said he could take Kaioshin himself, but he died to Piccolo and in Trunks' timeline he gets his ass saved by Dabra.

Babidi is physically weak, but has very strong magic, just as Kaioshin stated. Kaioshin is never completely confident in taking down Babidi, instead referring to pinning him down. Piccolo perhaps caught Babidi off guard or something. We don't really know. We just know a guy way stronger than Piccolo thinks Babidi is no joke and is very cautious about going after him.

He doesn't even know how strong the Saiyans are (He just vaguely calls them "marvelous energy")

He does seem to know how strong they are based on the fact they are making confident predictions of how they will fare.

how his own Kili Meter works!

Babidi thinks they filled it with humans, not Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. They are unsure of how they got the energy which leads to their mistake.

What does this guy know?

He knows what the author wants him to know. Which is the big picture issue here. The author is clearly presenting an idea that goes against the grain to which he forces it through. Base Saiyans are mini deities on their own. It's jarring just how powerful they've become, but the author no doubt forces the idea through time and time again. You are just looking to handwave the inconvenience of it all. But you aren't being true to what the actual narrative of the author is, I feel like you are playing devil's advocate far too much lately. Ever since you went Freeza > Base, you seemed to have taken this radical approach to things.

What does his flawed opinion bring to the table?

A ton, because we can safely discard what is wrong, and keep what is right. Anything Babidi, Dabura, Kaioshin agree on that isn't contradicted by the Saiyans is true.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kaioshin's energy cannot be used. Neither can Kibitos.

But the Saiyans can, and according to you Kaioshin is all but giving them inside a gift wrap to Babidi.

Kaioshin seems to confirm quite a lot of Badibi and Dabura's thinking. It's not a perfect representation, but it's clear that Babidi, Dabura, and Kaioshin all generally agree on most things, and the Saiyans have a completely different viewpoint that turns out to be the accurate one.

Yes, but Pui Pui one shotting all 3 Saiyans isn’t one of them.

Babidi is physically weak, but has very strong magic, just as Kaioshin stated. Kaioshin is never completely confident in taking down Babidi, instead referring to pinning him down. Piccolo perhaps caught Babidi off guard or something. We don't really know. We just know a guy way stronger than Piccolo thinks Babidi is no joke and is very cautious about going after him.

Babidi talked to Piccolo, tried to bluff his way out and cried for Boo to help him. How’s that off guard? He had every chance to defend himself and didn’t even try.

When it comes to his own capabilities at least, Babidi is just hot air. In DBS Future Babidi would’ve been pulverized if not for Dabra.

He does seem to know how strong they are based on the fact they are making confident predictions of how they will fare.

What are you talking about? His predictions turn out completely wrong and his goons all get stomped.

Babidi thinks they filled it with humans, not Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. They are unsure of how they got the energy which leads to their mistake.

Exactly. He thinks they’re like, Saiyan Saga level or maybe even less. Dabra even says “There was no one this strong when I last checked Earth 300 years ago”.

He knows what the author wants him to know.

Which is absolutely nothing. You’re not the author, Toriyama is and he writes Babidi as a buffoon whose plan would’ve been foiled if Vegeta didn’t help him. Zero points for him. I hate to say this because it sounds condescending as fuck, but it’s an action show for teenage boys.

I’m not really playing Devil’s advocate as much as just arguing Pui Pui vs Expected Saiyans isn’t that big. It’s a fine line though. Earlier I mentioned how DBS confirmed Babidi is fodder to Kaioshin, and it sort of makes one think how much they really knew. There’s a lot of stuff you guys overlook out of bias.

A ton, because we can safely discard what is wrong, and keep what is right. Anything Babidi, Dabura, Kaioshin agree on that isn't contradicted by the Saiyans is true.

Pui Pui one shotting the 3 Saiyans is not something Kaioshin agrees with them on.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But the Saiyans can, and according to you Kaioshin is all but giving them inside a gift wrap to Babidi.

Just as the narrative indicates, Babidi hatching the plan to lure them into the ship, his exclamation at their foolishness to be trapped, Kaioshin's warning of the trap, his anger of them being so easily led in for slaughter and so on.

Yes, but Pui Pui one shotting all 3 Saiyans isn’t one of them.

Well Babidi does tell Pui Pui that he has to be careful, but he's also fully expecting for Pui Pui to handle all 3 of them, regardless of Kaioshin's interference in seconds. So we have to be able to accurately agree with what's going on here.

What are you talking about? His predictions turn out completely wrong and his goons all get stomped.

Because the Base Saiyans far exceed all realms of expected power and then some. A point that gets hit home time after time, yet people refuse to accept it. I don't know much more the author could do to tell you other than use power levels.

Exactly. He thinks they’re like, Saiyan Saga level or maybe even less. Dabra even says “There was no one this strong when I last checked Earth 300 years ago”.

Well, Saiyan Saga wouldn't cut it since they expect them to be above Kaioshin and Kaioshin is clearly well above Saiyan Saga levels.

Toriyama is and he writes Babidi as a buffoon whose plan would’ve been foiled if Vegeta didn’t help him. Zero points for him. I hate to say this because it sounds condescending as fuck, but it’s an action show for teenage boys.

Which is why understanding the narrative shouldn't be too difficult. Now remember what my original claim was. The narrative that's being pushed by both parties is what we are after. There's two sets of narratives. Babidi, Dabura, and Kaioshin all seem to agree on a general consensus of things whereas the Saiyans seem completely opposed to everything the other side is bringing up. It is the Saiyans who are continously one upping the narrative, not that the narrative is some backwards nonsense that we'd have to accept if we went your route.

I’m not really playing Devil’s advocate as much as just arguing Pui Pui vs Expected Saiyans isn’t that big.

Babidi expects Pui Pui to be able to handle 3 Saiyans and Kaioshin in less then a minute.

Earlier I mentioned how DBS confirmed Babidi is fodder to Kaioshin, and it sort of makes one think how much they really knew. There’s a lot of stuff you guys overlook out of bias.

Babidi has always been fodder to Kaioshin. Kaioshin even goes into a whole little speech about what makes Babidi dangerous, his physical strength is nothing, but he has dangerous magic. Enough so that even Kaioshin isn't quite so sure of victory over him. Babidi didn't seem to use any magic when he fought against Piccolo in the Buu Saga, nor Kaioshin in the Future Trunks timeline so I don't think your counter is applicable here.

Pui Pui one shotting the 3 Saiyans is not something Kaioshin agrees with them on.

Kaioshin considers Pui Pui to be a dangerous opponent they all need to fight against to have a chance to win. It's quite possible the Expected Saiyans are only 75% of Pui Pui without a doubt. But remember, Babidi knows Pui Pui better than Kaioshin does and Babidi and Kaioshin both seem to have a pretty good feel for each other while also generally agreeing where the Saiyans stand. Significantly above Kaioshin, while significantly below Pui Pui.

Your point doesn't really make sense here. What gap of superiority is necessary to make a four on one necessary? I mean, you aren't actually suggesting Kaioshin believes they are in rivaling range to Pui Pui here, do you? That makes no sense.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well Babidi does tell Pui Pui that he has to be careful, but he's also fully expecting for Pui Pui to handle all 3 of them, regardless of Kaioshin's interference in seconds. So we have to be able to accurately agree with what's going on here.

Did Goku need to be careful fighting the Ginyu Force?

Dragon Ball fights happen very fast dude. Remember Kuririn vs Jackie?

Because the Base Saiyans far exceed all realms of expected power and then some. A point that gets hit home time after time, yet people refuse to accept it. I don't know much more the author could do to tell you other than use power levels.

You said Babidi knew how strong the Saiyans were, and now you're agreeing with me that they were better than he thought...

Well, Saiyan Saga wouldn't cut it since they expect them to be above Kaioshin and Kaioshin is clearly well above Saiyan Saga levels.

They never said that though. If you're saying that because Kaioshin and Kibito's energy couldn't be used, don't forget the main issue is that they're gods. Babidi said their energy couldn't be used at all, not that it was too small.

Which is why understanding the narrative shouldn't be too difficult. Now remember what my original claim was. The narrative that's being pushed by both parties is what we are after. There's two sets of narratives. Babidi, Dabura, and Kaioshin all seem to agree on a general consensus of things whereas the Saiyans seem completely opposed to everything the other side is bringing up. It is the Saiyans who are continously one upping the narrative, not that the narrative is some backwards nonsense that we'd have to accept if we went your route.

I don't think you know what a narrative is then. Your interpretation is like no one in the series can ever be wrong about anything so you have to compromise on every statement to find a middle ground. Same thing I say about Gotenks, except there's no gag here. We know Kaioshin has a faint clue, but Babidi just saw these guys arriving and decided to steal their energy.

Babidi didn't seem to use any magic when he fought against Piccolo in the Buu Saga, nor Kaioshin in the Future Trunks timeline so I don't think your counter is applicable here.

Why didn't he try then? In the anime he does fight Piccolo and gets his magic tanked. I don't think this argument is any different than those people who say Shin could've fought Pui Pui and Yakon but didn't bc he was afraid or whatever.

Kaioshin considers Pui Pui to be a dangerous opponent they all need to fight against to have a chance to win. It's quite possible the Expected Saiyans are only 75% of Pui Pui without a doubt. But remember, Babidi knows Pui Pui better than Kaioshin does and Babidi and Kaioshin both seem to have a pretty good feel for each other while also generally agreeing where the Saiyans stand. Significantly above Kaioshin, while significantly below Pui Pui.

Your point doesn't really make sense here. What gap of superiority is necessary to make a four on one necessary? I mean, you aren't actually suggesting Kaioshin believes they are in rivaling range to Pui Pui here, do you? That makes no sense.

There's a huge thing you're forgetting: They don't think in numbers. Only we do that because we're making lists, but these guys think in chains. In-universe, numerical precision was a thing for scouter-users.

Pui Pui > Saiyans > Shin. Are these gaps 1.25x? 1.5x? 10x? Doesn't really matter. Kaioshin doesn't have a power level list or a planning on how the fight should go exactly, that's why he's so afraid. Pui Pui may be 10x stronger than the Saiyans and one shot them all, but he also might be 1.1x and lose a 2v1. That's why he wants all 4 together, to be sure.

Doesn't that make way more sense? If you get into a fight with a guy you don't know, you want back-up to be sure. You're overanalyzing the gaps when you act like Kaioshin somehow knows Pui Pui is exactly 2x stronger (despite not even knowing who he is) instead of just knowing this guy is stronger by a unknown amount.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Did Goku need to be careful fighting the Ginyu Force?

Sure, he isn't leaving his guard open or anything like that. He's easily able to defeat them, but he can't play games with them either. If he takes on all three at once and he's joking around and gets hit by a Crusher Ball, he might actually have somewhat of a fight on his hands.

You said Babidi knew how strong the Saiyans were, and now you're agreeing with me that they were better than he thought..

Badibi and Kaioshin both have the same general placement for the Expected Saiyans.

They never said that though. If you're saying that because Kaioshin and Kibito's energy couldn't be used, don't forget the main issue is that they're gods. Babidi said their energy couldn't be used at all, not that it was too small.

I'm saying, sending out a Saiyan Saga enemy to fight Kaioshin doesn't make sense.

I don't think you know what a narrative is then. Your interpretation is like no one in the series can ever be wrong about anything so you have to compromise on every statement to find a middle ground.

Character statements are true unless contradicted. If multiple contradictions occur, you need to spend a bit more time to see the actual point the author is trying to convey. It shouldn't be rocket science though.

Same thing I say about Gotenks, except there's no gag here.

The logic remains the same with Gotenks. The only way out is via the gag excuse. If it's not for that, Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre without a second thought. The gag excuse is doable, but barely. Let's not get carried away. The Gotenks situation is a clear one off situation.

There's a huge thing you're forgetting: They don't think in numbers. Only we do that because we're making lists, but these guys think in chains. In-universe, numerical precision was a thing for scouter-users.

No, they use numerical precision themselves. They can make highly accurate estimates generally based on the proximity of their own power to the powers they are sensing. To be able to tell Vegeta is a little stronger than Goku in the Androids Saga would require such precision. Kaboom's analogy has always worked well. If you are comparing two buildings next to each other and you are on the roof of one of them, you can quite accurately view them. But if they are really tall buildings and you are on the ground, they both look like skyscrapers to you where one might be significantly taller than the other.

Why didn't he try then? In the anime he does fight Piccolo and gets his magic tanked. I don't think this argument is any different than those people who say Shin could've fought Pui Pui and Yakon but didn't bc he was afraid or whatever.

You'd have to ask the author on that one. The anime also has the Base Saiyans way above Kaioshin as well.

Shin is not afraid of Freeza. Shin is afraid of Pui Pui and Yakon, it's simple.

Are these gaps 1.25x? 1.5x? 10x? Doesn't really matter.

It does matter. Pui Pui is expected to be able to roll all 3 Saiyans and Kaioshin in a minute. Kaioshin thinks that they need to all combine their might to take on Pui Pui. The gap is implied to be a huge discrepancy in power no doubt.

Pui Pui may be 10x stronger than the Saiyans and one shot them all, but he also might be 1.1x and lose a 2v1. That's why he wants all 4 together, to be sure.

If he was 10x stronger, he wouldn't have to worry about them at all. He can't be 1.1x because 3 90s would easily beat 1 100. We know that.

How strong do you have the gap between Buu Powered Up and Ssj2 Majin Vegeta/Goku? The gap between Pui Pui and the Expected Saiyans should be larger than that. Bet your numbers are right in line with mine with that already.

hat's why he wants all 4 together, to be sure.

He wants all 4 because he knows Badibi only collects the strongest fighters and does not expect this guy to be easy pickings.

Doesn't that make way more sense? If you get into a fight with a guy you don't know, you want back-up to be sure.

For sure, but Kaioshin and Babidi have a relationship with each other. Does it make sense to send out a fly to get swatted by everyone? Kaioshin knows Badibi is no dummy and knows that he's sending him something to challenge him.

You're overanalyzing the gaps when you act like Kaioshin somehow knows Pui Pui is exactly 2x stronger

Kaioshin doesn't know Pui Pui's exact strength, he assumes he is beastly because he knows Badibi. After the fight, nothing is noted about him being weaker than expected so it's safe to say he's at least significantly stronger than the weakest of them there at least, who'd be Kaioshin.

instead of just knowing this guy is stronger by a unknown amount.

And the unknown amount seems to be right in line with the expected amount portrayed by Badibi.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You forgot my line about Kuririn vs Jackie.

Sure, he isn't leaving his guard open or anything like that. He's easily able to defeat them, but he can't play games with them either. If he takes on all three at once and he's joking around and gets hit by a Crusher Ball, he might actually have somewhat of a fight on his hands.

But he's basically toying with them though. Recoome charges him, nobody sees him approaching Jeice and Burta to tell them to quit. When it's 2V1 he's running circles around them and making fun of Burta's speed.

Character statements are true unless contradicted. If multiple contradictions occur, you need to spend a bit more time to see the actual point the author is trying to convey. It shouldn't be rocket science though.

No. If there are contradictions, then the contradicted is wrong. It's like if someone told you the sky is green and you tried to seriously understand if that could be the case. There's not a deeper meaning here, right trumps wrong and that's that.

No, they use numerical precision themselves. They can make highly accurate estimates generally based on the proximity of their own power to the powers they are sensing. To be able to tell Vegeta is a little stronger than Goku in the Androids Saga would require such precision. Kaboom's analogy has always worked well. If you are comparing two buildings next to each other and you are on the roof of one of them, you can quite accurately view them. But if they are really tall buildings and you are on the ground, they both look like skyscrapers to you where one might be significantly taller than the other.

Glad you're on with Kaboom's analogy, because it's the perfect set up for me here. You can't tell the exact difference between buildings in ft just by looking, can you?

Point is, nobody thinks in percentage gaps. The biggest proof of that is that we take "perhaps" as a 1.1x gap or less, when for the Ki sensor he can't see the gap at all.

You'd have to ask the author on that one.

You're dodging the point the point now. Come on, you know Babidi is fodder. Even Kaioshin says he's gonna pin that freak down, I think when Boo seemed to be DOA. He's nothing without his goons.

How strong do you have the gap between Buu Powered Up and Ssj2 Majin Vegeta/Goku? The gap between Pui Pui and the Expected Saiyans should be larger than that. Bet your numbers are right in line with mine with that already.

Huh? Why? Aren't they more or less the same? The teams can win if they work together.

He wants all 4 because he knows Badibi only collects the strongest fighters and does not expect this guy to be easy pickings.

Enough expecting. What does he know, for a fact? How does he know Pui Pui is exactly 2x when he had never even seen Pui Pui before? Did he read Babidi's mind to see the gap?

Kaioshin doesn't know Pui Pui's exact strength, he assumes he is beastly because he knows Badibi. After the fight, nothing is noted about him being weaker than expected so it's safe to say he's at least significantly stronger than the weakest of them there at least, who'd be Kaioshin.

Why would he care if Pui Pui was 1.2x stronger than him instead of 1.5x? "Hey, Pui Pui is a 120 instead of a 150! That totally explains why Vegeta's 200 stomped him so easily!"

Pui Pui could be 1.1x Kaioshin, and Kaioshin will still be drooling. Vegeta is the star here, not Pui Pui. Why would Kaioshin care that he could touch Pui Pui when Vegeta just pulverized him without trying?

 

[FeatsofPower]

But he's basically toying with them though. Recoome charges him, nobody sees him approaching Jeice and Burta to tell them to quit. When it's 2V1 he's running circles around them and making fun of Burta's speed.

Goku is likely 1.6x stronger, not 1.5x.