Armament Haki during Marineford

[SSJ2]

Idk why. I'm just saying that the ''visual cue'' isn't always consistent even in part 2.

I don't doubt that there are some instances where it isn't shown, but there's no such thing as invisible armament Haki according to Oda, so the assumption should be that it was meant to be coated.

 

[Future Warrior]

This is the most recent breakdown. There's no mention of a form of Haki below the coating stage.

So you're telling me that when Whitebeard punched the shit out of Akainu that it was Level 2 Armament? There was no emission there, so it wouldn't make sense.

I prefer to just think that the black coating thing was invisible in this instance from our perspective. I can't explain why there are instances of it being invisible even in part 2, but I guess you can say they are both Level 1 but the black coating is simply a higher concentration of it.

 

[SSJ2]

No man. I already said that Haki being used invisibly during Marineford was because it wasn't a concept yet. Invisible Haki isn't actually a thing. It's just implied that it was used at Marineford when you see how widespread Haki use is in the New World. The assumption is they were using it, and they should have been coated in it.

 

[Future Warrior]

No man. I already said that Haki being used invisibly during Marineford was because it wasn't a concept yet. Invisible Haki isn't actually a thing. It's just implied that it was used at Marineford when you see how widespread Haki use is in the New World. The assumption is they were using it, and they should have been coated in it.

I just watched the fight between Luffy and Dr. Caesar Salad at Punk Hazard. There is definitely a difference. At first Luffy is able to hurt him despite no black coating, and then says Armament Hardening which makes it look different.

This attack actually gave him a nose bleed.

Then his arm turns black when he calls it hardening. Both of these panels are from the same chapter, you can't tell me that there is only 1 version of the attack.

 

[SSJ2]

All that shows is that Caesar wasn't completely in gas form when he got hit. He's only immune to physical attacks as a logia if he transforms into his element. Evidently he was late in turning into gas in regards to Luffy's attack reaching him. It's no different to Luffy hitting Aokiji physically despite him having a logia, though obviously Aokiji is so much stronger than Luffy that he would never bleed.

Spoiler

 

[Future Warrior]

All that shows is that Caesar wasn't completely in gas form when he got hit. He's only immune to physical attacks as a logia if he transforms into his element. Evidently he was late in turning into gas in regards to Luffy's attack reaching him. It's no different to Luffy hitting Aokiji physically despite him having a logia, though obviously Aokiji is so much stronger than Luffy that he would never bleed.

Spoiler

Read the whole fight in chapter 681. We see Caesar constantly trying to evade Luffy when he comes at him with no black coating. Why would Luffy even try hitting him when he's a logia? He seems to be in gas form the whole time to me.

About Aokiji I think it's more likely that the attack simply wasn't enough to break him. He's Ice, a solid form.

 

[SSJ2]

So I'm starting to think that Haki is only coloured black for the sake of the reader. Here is Rayleigh's explanation of Haki:

Spoiler

As we can see, the Haki that is capable of touching a logia is actually invisible, and Rayleigh describes it as an "invisible armour". So there are 2 possibilities.

1. The black coating of Haki is only done so the reader can understand when Haki is being used.
2. Perhaps you can only see the black coating if you have been trained to use Haki or are familiar with it.

I'm thinking option 1 honestly. You were correct in your assessment of the fight with Caesar. I believe in 680 Franky even points out that Luffy used Haki to grab him, but he had to question whether or not Luffy was even using it.

There is contradiction in this exchange:

Spoiler

I don't have a good reason for Luffy not using Haki in the first panel. But if you go by the idea that Haki is not a physical coating, then it's possible that he was using it there, or he truly thought he could hit Caesar without Haki. As I did say, you can only use logia powers if you will your body to do so. Perhaps Luffy thought that he was so much faster than Caesar that he could attack him before transforming?

Think about Luffy vs Crocodile. Crocodile had awakened his fruit and was said to be a master of it in combat. It's reasonable that he'd be far better than a scientist like Caesar at transforming his body into sand to avoid being hit. Caesar isn't acclimated to high level combat, so he may have been dodging base Luffy's attacks out of fear that he would slip up.

 

[Future Warrior]

So I'm starting to think that Haki is only coloured black for the sake of the reader. Here is Rayleigh's explanation of Haki:

Spoiler

As we can see, the Haki that is capable of touching a logia is actually invisible, and Rayleigh describes it as an "invisible armour". So there are 2 possibilities.

1. The black coating of Haki is only done so the reader can understand when Haki is being used.
2. Perhaps you can only see the black coating if you have been trained to use Haki or are familiar with it.

So you're telling me when Luffy punched him here and hurt him, he wasn't in full gas form? I get what you're saying, but the visuals don't align with your theory.

Spoiler

For the record, I'm not arguing about whether Haki is invisible or not. I'm willing to bet that the black coating is probably invisible, I'm just saying that I feel that there are two versions of Armament Haki at this point in the story. One that is without the coating and one where there is.

 

[SSJ2]

But wasn't that example when he took Caesar by surprise?

Spoiler

As you can see, Caesar wasn't in gas form at all initially. It wasn't until after Luffy hit him that he started to emit gas.


I dunno, you could be right really. I just don't recall anyone differentiating between invisible armament and the hardening version before.

 

[Future Warrior]

But wasn't that example when he took Caesar by surprise?

Spoiler

As you can see, Caesar wasn't in gas form at all initially. It wasn't until after Luffy hit him that he started to emit gas.


I dunno, you could be right really. I just don't recall anyone differentiating between invisible armament and the hardening version before.

Isn't that him on the right panel when they enter the room? I think you could see his lower half.

 

[SSJ2]

Yea but look at his face. His face and midsection were not in gaseous form which should look like this:

Spoiler

 

[ahill1]

Well, at least in the anime, Smoker was shown reacting to Vergo filling his body in Haki, so I think black haki can be seen from the characters' standpoint.

As for the topic, while It's possible that many top tiers characters from Marineford were using the 2nd level of armament Haki (the "invisible" Shield"), are we to assume even some lower level characters like that giant who got crushed by Whitebeard would be capable of that? I dunno, maybe.

 

[SSJ2]

That's only relevant if it happened in the manga.

And nah, I don't see why the giant would need advanced armament. Vice Admirals of the Marines must be capable of using Haki of some form, and that could mean observation.

 

[SSJ2]

And even if that was in the manga, that could be a product of observation Haki. Like Luffy was able to tell that Cracker and Katakuri had the strongest Haki he had faced. I doubt he could tell that before learning observation Haki.

 

[ahill1]

Telling how strong they're is one thing, but telling they're filling their entire body with Haki? That seems only possible through seeing It.

 

[Future Warrior]

Yea but look at his face. His face and midsection were not in gaseous form which should look like this:

Spoiler

Haven't we seen logias be 100% invincible regardless of appearance?

 

[SSJ2]

Yea but look at his face. His face and midsection were not in gaseous form which should look like this:

Spoiler

Haven't we seen logias be 100% invincible regardless of appearance?

It's my understanding that it's only the case if the user is actively controlling their element. Like how Aokiji was able to be attacked physically because he didn't need to activate his power.

They are more or less invincible though as they can always transform into their element after being struck which would negate any damage.

 

[ahill1]

For what's worth, Luffy hit Smoker and Ace (both logias) in Alabasta when they weren't paying attention.

 

[Future Warrior]

Old topic but I caught something possibly interesting while rereading parts of the marineford. When Whitebeard punches Akainu from behind on the right side it kind of looks like he's using Level 2 Armament Haki (the forcefield). He's injuring him without even touching him.

I don't think it's his DF ability because on the left you can see the effect isn't the same.

 

[SSJ2]

That looks like his fruit to me.