"Base Goku (BoG arc) was weaker than Freeza" statement

[Keedounan]

So, based on the manga's events (perhaps even Super, provided there are valid examples), how would you counter this? I can think of a few examples on top of my head, such as Trunks' fight against #18 or Shin being apparently afraid of fighting Yakon according to the Daizenshuu (since it was a valid interpretation in the manga).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Aside from feats and statements in the original manga's post-Cell Games and Boo Arc material (Future Trunks' kiai against Future Cell and the latter's implication of Base Future Trunks (Post-Cell Games) > SSJ Trunks (Pre-Rosat) being another good example), counter-arguments within Super would include:

- Beerus was basing his words on Goku's appearance. He'd already seen SSJ Goku in Whis' crystal ball and Goku's base self was clearly far different physically.
- Manga-wise, there is no Base Goku < Freeza statement. Freeza only ever gets mentioned after Goku goes SS2, making the statement even more meaningless.
- General scaling. Pre-God Goku at his peak is implied to be above Gotenks and Gohan anime-wise and even if giving Goku a far higher multiplier than Gotenks, it'll still be nigh-impossible for him to end up weaker than Freeza with the power creep that went on in the Cell and Boo Arcs.
- Goku was at his resting level, so not an accurate estimation on Beerus' part. The argument that Beerus' examination allowed him to know Goku's full base power from that alone has no evidence backing it up, given that Beerus wouldn't even know Saiyans could control their Ki to such an extent and all other instances of him examining someone's power was through battle.

 

[Keedounan]

Aside from feats and statements in the original manga's post-Cell Games and Boo Arc material (Future Trunks' kiai against Future Cell and the latter's implication of Base Future Trunks (Post-Cell Games) > SSJ Trunks (Pre-Rosat) being another good example), counter-arguments within Super would include:

- Beerus was basing his words on Goku's appearance. He'd already seen SSJ Goku in Whis' crystal ball and Goku's base self was clearly far different physically.
- Manga-wise, there is no Base Goku < Freeza statement. Freeza only ever gets mentioned after Goku goes SS2, making the statement even more meaningless.
- General scaling. Pre-God Goku at his peak is implied to be above Gotenks and Gohan anime-wise and even if giving Goku a far lower multiplier than Gotenks, it'll still be nigh-impossible for him to end up weaker than Freeza with the power creep that went on in the Cell and Boo Arcs.
- Goku was at his resting level, so not an accurate estimation on Beerus' part. The argument that Beerus' examination allowed him to know Goku's full base power from that alone has no evidence backing it up, given that Beerus wouldn't even know Saiyans could control their Ki to such an extent and all other instances of him examining someone's power was through battle.

What about King Kai saying that Beerus is "correct"? Would you say it's only about Goku having access to Super Saiyan? Or the fact that he beat Freeza with it? Perhaps both? Some would even go as far as saying that Goku/King Kai not bothering to correct him is a confirmation (which is a bias).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd say it could be both, or it could be even more simple than that - Kaio knows how easily Beerus can be irritated and would rather be his yes man than contradict someone he knows destroys planets for trivial matters.

 

[Keedounan]

I'd say it could be both, or it could be even more simple than that - Kaio knows how easily Beerus can be irritated and would rather be his yes man than contradict someone he knows destroys planets for trivial matters.

Especially when Beerus already destroyed most of his planet after he beat him in a game.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That, and if Beerus knew Goku was indeed stronger than Freeza in his base form alone and had several Super Saiyan forms on top of that, it'd only make Beerus more excited about fighting Goku. Kaio wanted to do his best not only to have Goku avoid fighting Beerus, but avoid damaging his planet if possible.

 

[VampireWicked]

[youtube]zxIzrmGOwQE[/youtube]​

Goku: 300万
Super Saiyan Goku: 1億5000万
Freeza 50%: 6000万
Freeza 100%: 1 億2000万

“万” (man) is the kanji for 10 thousand, while “億” (oku) represents 100 million. If you do the math, “300 man” is 3 million and “1 oku, 5 thousand man” is 150 million. It is easy to see how someone not too experienced with the Japanese number system could make a mistake converting them, especially since all the previous battle powers in this section of Daizenshuu 7 are written purely in Arabic numerals, with no kanji or mathematical conversion required.

What about the change in Goku’s battle power after that?

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

KidTrunks would have to be born with an extremely high Base PowerLevel, & or gain enough from Namek Base Goku's 3Million to 120Million in his Base form just to rival Frieza.
Than have to gain enough to rival Android18.

A Base KidTrunks with a PowerLevel that high would be 6.000.000.000 as a SuperSaiyan.
If Goku & Vegeta's PowerLevel in Base never got high enough to rival Frieza, then how could any Fusion between them surpass a SuperSaiyan3 Gotenks.

 

[Keedounan]

[youtube]zxIzrmGOwQE[/youtube]​

Goku: 300万
Super Saiyan Goku: 1億5000万
Freeza 50%: 6000万
Freeza 100%: 1 億2000万

“万” (man) is the kanji for 10 thousand, while “億” (oku) represents 100 million. If you do the math, “300 man” is 3 million and “1 oku, 5 thousand man” is 150 million. It is easy to see how someone not too experienced with the Japanese number system could make a mistake converting them, especially since all the previous battle powers in this section of Daizenshuu 7 are written purely in Arabic numerals, with no kanji or mathematical conversion required.

What about the change in Goku’s battle power after that?

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

KidTrunks would have to be born with an extremely high Base PowerLevel, & or gain enough from Namek Base Goku's 3Million to 120Million in his Base form just to rival Frieza.
Than have to gain enough to rival Android18.

A Base KidTrunks with a PowerLevel that high would be 6.000.000.000 as a SuperSaiyan.
If Goku & Vegeta's PowerLevel in Base never got high enough to rival Frieza, then how could any Fusion between them surpass a SuperSaiyan3 Gotenks.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe Captain Cadaver's arguments from the other thread aren't unfounded?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe Captain Cadaver's arguments aren't unfounded?

Whilst I appreciate the support, it doesn't really have much a bearing on this thread in particular. No need for it to become a flame war.

 

[VampireWicked]

[youtube]zxIzrmGOwQE[/youtube]​

Goku: 300万
Super Saiyan Goku: 1億5000万
Freeza 50%: 6000万
Freeza 100%: 1 億2000万

“万” (man) is the kanji for 10 thousand, while “億” (oku) represents 100 million. If you do the math, “300 man” is 3 million and “1 oku, 5 thousand man” is 150 million. It is easy to see how someone not too experienced with the Japanese number system could make a mistake converting them, especially since all the previous battle powers in this section of Daizenshuu 7 are written purely in Arabic numerals, with no kanji or mathematical conversion required.

What about the change in Goku’s battle power after that?

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

KidTrunks would have to be born with an extremely high Base PowerLevel, & or gain enough from Namek Base Goku's 3Million to 120Million in his Base form just to rival Frieza.
Than have to gain enough to rival Android18.

A Base KidTrunks with a PowerLevel that high would be 6.000.000.000 as a SuperSaiyan.
If Goku & Vegeta's PowerLevel in Base never got high enough to rival Frieza, then how could any Fusion between them surpass a SuperSaiyan3 Gotenks.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe Captain Cadaver's arguments from the other thread aren't unfounded?

Yup, already went through that on Neo & wasn't convinced.

 

[Keedounan]

Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe Captain Cadaver's arguments aren't unfounded?

Whilst I appreciate the support, it doesn't really have much a bearing on this thread in particular. No need for it to become a flame war.

That wasn't my intent. Plus, it does have bearing on VampireWicked's points about Kid Trunks (because they posted in the wrong thread, btw?). How could Goku possibly be weaker than Freeza if Trunks' performance against #18 suggest the opposite, after all?

But as you wish, I won't further elaborate on that.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That wasn't my intent. Plus, it does have bearing on VampireWicked's points about Kid Trunks (because they posted in the wrong thread, btw?)

Well, yeah. If they were in that thread, it'd be different. When we haven't debated in this thread, however, I can't really see bringing up our previous discussion as really working out too well, even if I do understand your reasoning for bringing it up.

 

[Pyro]

I just wouldn't even bother with the anime's line. It doesn't perform the same function in the manga, and it's dubious to begin with, so it's a rather insufficient piece of the puzzle.

 

[SSJ2]

While I agree the statement in general should be discarded, Keedounan and CC have provided more than enough reasoning to fit the statement in with the story. I see no reason to eliminate it tbh.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Even Semi Cell is weaker than Freeza. :rape

 

[ahill1]

I agree with [mention]Keedounan[/mention] and [mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]. These guys' way of arguing and points just make so much sense to me. Cheers for both of you ^_^. Really appreciate having both here on this community.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] -- why do you think Goku didn't bother correcting Beerus, as unlikely Kaio-sama, he has no reason to be his yes man? Plus, some people argue that the statement would serve no purpose if it weren't meant to be taken at face value.

Only some things I'd like to clarify. Not that I'm contesting the base Saiyajin's implied placemet.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Well, Goku was still knowledgeable that contradicting Beerus would be a bad idea, so it could be inferred that he considered it best not to. On top of that, it's not as if Goku's the kind of person to get so pedantic on small things like that, especially when it's not as though he'd be fighting Beerus in base.

As for taking it at face value, that could be seen as the case if it weren't so unimportant it got cut from the manga's adaption of the same events and pretty much goes against every bit of evidence from the Boo Arc and guidebooks pointing to the contrary, so not exactly a strong selling point regardless of its intention.

 

[ahill1]

Well, Goku was still knowledgeable that contradicting Beerus would be a bad idea, so it could be inferred that he considered it best not to. On top of that, it's not as if Goku's the kind of person to get so pedantic on small things like that, especially when it's not as though he'd be fighting Beerus in base.

But Goku has never been too keen on proper etiquette -- the fact he challenged Beerus to a match in the first place was already defying perceived standards which King Kai was having to constantly correct him on. Something like a basic admittance of his power having grown enough to where he could handle Freeza in base wouldn't be inappropriate or unwarranted since Beerus brought the subject up in the first place.

What do you think?

 

[ahill1]

^ Answer above

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]