base Gotenks (post Rosat) vs SSJ3 Goku

[Diamond Ryan]

I don't think Fat Boo at that point was that much stronger than Majin Vegeta; he managed to pummel him for a bit and fire a blast straight through his body. IIRC, Goku thought that he and Vegeta could win if they went at him together. It wasn't until Fat Boo's huge blast that everyone realized Vegeta was screwed.

 

[kriss-]

I don't think Fat Boo at that point was that much stronger than Majin Vegeta; he managed to pummel him for a bit and fire a blast straight through his body. IIRC, Goku thought that he and Vegeta could win if they went at him together. It wasn't until Fat Boo's huge blast that everyone realized Vegeta was screwed.

Goku thought himself, Vegeta and Gohan could win. That's three Super Saiyan 2's, this implies a large difference in power.

Vegeta knew he was weaker and would be killed.

Piccolo couldn't tell the difference and called his power tremendous. He's not reliable, it's that simple. And you cannot determine that Gotenks is stronger then everybody who came before him before his Ki is called amazing. Meh, that leaves too much to be desired.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Yeah, there was a difference, but it wasn't enough to be a stomp. Goku was confident that the three of them together could win, and team attacks are usually good for nothing in Dragon Ball. Also, if Boo had a normal body, he probably would've died when Vegeta blasted him. So I only think Fat Boo far surpassed the SSJ2's when he powered up a second time.

Anyways, Base Gotenks can be greater than Majin Vegeta and still not contradict anything, or he could be weaker than Piccolo. It is basically different interpretations of one scene, just like the Good Boo and Vegeta analysis.

 

[kriss-]

Yeah, there was a difference, but it wasn't enough to be a stomp. Goku was confident that the three of them together could win, and team attacks are usually good for nothing in Dragon Ball.

If team attacks were useless in Dragonball, Goku's statement is a false pretense. It isn't. So team attacks are completely reliable.

So I only think Fat Boo far surpassed the SSJ2's when he powered up a second time.

Vegeta was trying to fight somebody that three Super Saiyan 2s could defeat, but by himself. He knew that he wasn't going to survive the battle. The difference between Majin Vegeta and Boo is very apparent, as implied by Vegeta himself.

Piccolo can't tell the difference. He's obviously not completely reliable during the Boo Saga.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I'm saying when the gap is big enough, team attacks are useless. It doesn't take much of a gap to beat someone easily, which Boo failed to do until he powered up immensely. And Goku was expecting to fight someone with a normal body, so I don't think the gap needs to be very big.

 

[kriss-]

I'm saying when the gap is big enough, team attacks are useless.

The gap between Trunks and Android 18 was tremendous. But, Piccolo Trunks and two Earthings was stated as being capable of taking Android 18 down.

So no, I completely disagree.

And Goku was expecting to fight someone with a normal body, so I don't think the gap needs to be very big.

The battle power Vegeta sensed before fighting Boo was enough for Vegeta to determine that he wasn't going to survive the fight.

Piccolo isn't certain.

Majin Vegeta is reliable, Piccolo isn't. It's clear as day.

 

[Six Trails]

Piccolo : “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”

Piccolo said Gotenks ki is really incredible... "really", like he already had an estimations about Gotenks' power (enough to beat fat boo) and this happened to be true. Piccolo questioning his speed doesn't imply Gotenks' ki isn't up to the job at all.

"Really" is the key word, as you already highlighted. It still baffles me that people will just keep saying "Oh!!! He only said he's incredible!!! That doesn't have to mean stronger than Boo!!!" and ignore the "really" part.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Is it really a fallacy to assume speed and power are the same when there is no statement that says otherwise? From what we've seen, whenever someone is faster, they have more ki unless it is explicitly pointed out. I've yet to see any statement that indicates Gotenks' speed and raw ki are different, so it is easier to assume they are the same.

 

[kriss-]

Piccolo : “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”

Piccolo said Gotenks ki is really incredible... "really", like he already had an estimations about Gotenks' power (enough to beat fat boo) and this happened to be true. Piccolo questioning his speed doesn't imply Gotenks' ki isn't up to the job at all.

"Really" is the key word, as you already highlighted. It still baffles me that people will just keep saying "Oh!!! He only said he's incredible!!! That doesn't have to mean stronger than Boo!!!" and ignore the "really" part.

I've already countered that and proved that Piccolo's Ki reading is faulty during this portion of the series. He couldn't even tell that Cell was that much stronger then he was, he needed confirmation. During the Boo Saga, he's dealing with powers greater then his own.

Teen Gohan established that Majin Boo's initial battle power was something that his true power -which referenced the Cell Games twice, could potentially manage something against Boo, but he's uncertain. Meanwhile, Majin Vegeta laughs at this degree of battle power and insists that himself and Goku are far beyond it. Further-more, Innocent Boo does a power-up and Vegeta acknowledges that he's been surpassed, and to the degree where he's certain he'll die, but he goes anyways.

So, we've established that Majin Vegeta laughs at a battle power that Gohan is uncertain his true power -former power from the Cell Games, could defeat, meanwhile Piccolo is uncertain if Majin Vegeta was greater, he couldn't tell.

He calls Majin Vegeta's Ki stupendous, which is equally as impressive as being called 'incredible', but he was unable to discern anything accurately from it.

You can argue semantics all you want, but the burden of proof still lies on you to prove anything, anything at all.

 

[Kidbuu55]

Gotenks is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR weaker than Goku, so much so that he (and Piccolo) even admit that he hasn't surpassed the suppressed power Goku displayed fighting Fat Buu until he achieves SSJ3 - Even then, when Goku shows off his true power, he outstrips everyone by a significant margin.

 

[Kidbuu55]

Piccolo : “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”

Piccolo said Gotenks ki is really incredible... "really", like he already had an estimations about Gotenks' power (enough to beat fat boo) and this happened to be true. Piccolo questioning his speed doesn't imply Gotenks' ki isn't up to the job at all.

"Really" is the key word, as you already highlighted. It still baffles me that people will just keep saying "Oh!!! He only said he's incredible!!! That doesn't have to mean stronger than Boo!!!" and ignore the "really" part.

If you threw a few hundred dollar bills at me, and I said "He REALLY does have a lot of money" It's not a comparison between you or anyone else. It's a statement acknowledging you have a bunch of money, though it's not to say you're more wealthy than Bill Gates/Carlos Slim.

 

[ahill1]

But Piccolo already had expectations about Gotenks's power. He expected that he'd at least be > Fat Boo. So there's a big difference.

 

[kriss-]

Expecting a specific outcome and receiving it without clarifying that the expectations were met, leaves too much to be desired to draw any definitive logic from it. At least that's what I think.

 

[Kidbuu55]

I have tried a lot to match Beeruses statement with Fusion Saga statements. There are plenty of theories, but i think the one that makes
more sense is that of FPSSJ3 Goku: Goku needed one minute to fully tap into his SSJ3 power, which is larger than Gotenkses/Gohan's. He
knew he wouldn't have this minute against Super Buu, which is why he said he'd be done for if he tried fighting him. By BOG, he had trained
to access his full SSJ3 power instantly. Does that cover everything?

Goku was already stronger than Gotenks and Gohan EWAAYYY before then.

No statements say that Gotenks was on Goku's level, much less Buu.
- Goku DOES NOT say that Gotenks will be stronger than himself. EVER. It's not present in ANY media source, he LIES to Piccolo and states that he told Buu that - we know he never said anything of the sort.
- Krillin states that "GOKU SAYS" Fusion is the strongest. This is NOT an observation on his part, he is repeating what Goku stated. Beyond that, Piccolo doesn't agree!
- Piccolo DOES say that Gotenks power (in comparison to Buu's) hasn't been enough yet, this is immediately after Evil Buu forms.

Gotenks, despite FAILING to beat Buu, was stated to do "better than expected" In other words, he was expected to fail.

Gotenks as a SSJ3 is stated to be "the strongest person Buu has fought" up to that point, a designation he wasn't given UNTIL he hit SSJ3.

Finally - Goku went from statemating a guy who Vegeta fought roughly even with for a few rounds, to beating up on a guy who KO'd Vegeta in 2 hits - the delta in power between what Goku showed to Piccolo and Co. and What he used against Buu is MASSIVE.

In Super, the 2nd Episode specifically states that Goku is the STRONGEST in the Universe.

GOKU STOMPS - You're better off comparing Gotenks AND Gohan to Goku to get close to his realm of power.