base Gotenks (post Rosat) vs SSJ3 Goku

[Diamond Ryan]

Kuririn didn't hesitate to tell Piccolo that he didn't stand a chance against Boo, but he gave Gotenks the benefit of the doubt. He clearly sensed Gotenks' ki, so the fact that he was willing to do that shows that Gotenks could at least back his words up a little.

Piccolo had no intention of using Gotenks Base Pre, he wanted them to defuse and try again as Super Saiyans. This also disregards your hypothesis that Gotenks was so powerful.

The only concrete thing we can get out of that is that Base Gotenks < Boo. It doesn't have any strength related comment as to how Piccolo compares to Gotenks.

Nothing is said about his power being sufficient. All that's proven is that Gotenks is still a work in progress, hence why Piccolo was testing him out. Whereas Gotenks believed he was strong enough to take out Boo because he was so quick, this is blatantly stated.

Isn't that SSJ Gotenks who does the speed test? Piccolo sensed Gotenks' ki and wanted to make sure that his speed was up to snuff as well. That doesn't really say anything about his speed being higher than his ki level would suggest. It is almost always stated when there is a discrepancy between speed and ki, like Captain Ginyu and Goku, and SSJ G3 Trunks. There is no such statement for Gotenks.

 

[kriss-]

Kuririn didn't hesitate to tell Piccolo that he didn't stand a chance against Boo, but he gave Gotenks the benefit of the doubt. He clearly sensed Gotenks' ki, so the fact that he was willing to do that shows that Gotenks could at least back his words up a little.

He clearly did there. They said he just may have a chance because of his own confidence, not because what they sensed from him was actually sufficient in dealing with Boo. Piccolo knew it wasn't so he tried to stop him.

Reactions on their own leave too much to be desired and are not reliable sources to determine anything.

The only concrete thing we can get out of that is that Base Gotenks < Boo. It doesn't have any strength related comment as to how Piccolo compares to Gotenks.

Agreed.

So it's not a reach to determine that he was in fact weaker then Piccolo, especially when nothing says that's not an incorrect train of thought.

Isn't that SSJ Gotenks who does the speed test? Piccolo sensed Gotenks' ki and wanted to make sure that his speed was up to snuff as well. That doesn't really say anything about his speed being higher than his ki level would suggest. It is almost always stated when there is a discrepancy between speed and ki, like Captain Ginyu and Goku, and SSJ G3 Trunks. There is no such statement for Gotenks.

Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.

Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.

Argument:
Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks' when he said he could finish Boo.

Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Piccolo did sense Gotenks' ki though. He wanted to see if his speed was as impressive as his power (Piccolo was clearly impressed). The point of his speed feat wasn't to show that Gotenks' speed and power are unbalanced. It was making a point that both his speed and power are great. Is his speed higher than his power? We don't know, because it is never stated.

 

[kriss-]

Piccolo is still testing Gotenks, he decided to test his speed first, but Gotenks makes the mistake in believing that just because his speed has increased so much, his strength much be as great. This is a fallacy.

All the points I made above still stand.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

That is just Gotenks' nature: an arrogant jackass. He thought his base state could win initially, so of course he would think his even greater SSJ power could win, even without the speed test. The only difference is that Piccolo immediately recognized that Base Gotenks was no match for Boo, but didn't voice these qualms for SSJ Gotenks. Plus, I still haven't seen a statement that says Gotenks' speed and power are unbalanced.

 

[kriss-]

So that proves how unreliable he is as a character.

The entire purpose of working with Gotenks was to get him prepared to fight Boo. Hence the speed test. Though that's not the same as saying his Ki was great enough, nowhere is this stated.

I've shown why Gotenks being stronger then Fat Boo prior to entering the Rosat doesn't work. I've shown why speed doesn't correlate with strength. I've shown why Gotenks was wrong in his estimation because he based his own capabilities on his speed, which is an unreliable comparison.

You've shown nothing.

You also failed to counter anything above.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I thought we were discussing if Base Gotenks is stronger than Piccolo or not? But whatever.

My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.

Piccolo was able to sense Gotenks' ki. I don't think there has been any point where ki and raw strength have been different than one another. Since Gotenks was meant to fight Boo, why didn't Piccolo immediately tell Gotenks to defuse and begin training to improve their strength? He immediately knew Base Gotenks was too weak to fight Boo, which is why he immediately told them to defuse and try again as Super Saiyans. He should've done the same with Gotenks if he was still too weak, then do the speed test once his raw ki was able to at least match Boo's. However, he gives Gotenks the speed test right away, which tells me that his ki was enough to potentially beat Boo.

Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.

Piccolo should've voiced these doubts before he did the speed test with Gotenks. Something like, "You're still not strong enough to beat Boo, but I want to see your speed." Knowing Gotenks, he probably would have charged off anyways, but Piccolo should've at least said something. Plus, if Gotenks wasn't strong enough, wouldn't the kids be in danger anyway? His main concern was the remaining fusion time, not Gotenks' strength.

 

[kriss-]

I thought we were discussing if Base Gotenks is stronger than Piccolo or not? But whatever.

We were and we determined that there was nothing that actually said Gotenks was stronger then anybody.

Piccolo was able to sense Gotenks' ki. I don't think there has been any point where ki and raw strength have been different than one another.

Standing Ki is completely different from fighting Ki. There is a huge difference and Piccolo did not have the time to gauge Gotenks properly.

Arguing that he did is a reach.

Since Gotenks was meant to fight Boo, why didn't Piccolo immediately tell Gotenks to defuse and begin training to improve their strength?

Gotenks was still a work in progress, so Piccolo decided to do the tests to see where he stands. That's nowhere near as being the same thing as Piccolo thinking Gotenks was strong enough to defeat Boo.

He immediately knew Base Gotenks was too weak to fight Boo, which is why he immediately told them to defuse and try again as Super Saiyans.

Gotenks was still a work in progress.

The entire purpose of having Gotenks fight Boo was to have Gotenks fight as a Super Saiyan. That's the purpose. Once Gotenks reached that level, the tests began. But he did not have sufficient time to determine anything accurately.

However, he gives Gotenks the speed test right away, which tells me that his ki was enough to potentially beat Boo.

Standing Ki is not the same as fighting Ki. Piccolo never says he's capable of defeating Boo either.

Piccolo should've voiced these doubts before he did the speed test with Gotenks. Something like, "You're still not strong enough to beat Boo, but I want to see your speed."

Because Gotenks makes the wrong assertion that his strength increased as much as his speed, tells me that Piccolo didn't have any idea either. Since nobody conforms to this idea, then it makes the most sense.

Plus, if Gotenks wasn't strong enough, wouldn't the kids be in danger anyway? His main concern was the remaining fusion time, not Gotenks' strength.

Piccolo did not have the time to get an accurate read on Gotenks or what he was truly capable of, it's not like Gotenks went to full power.

Gotenks also took off before Piccolo had an opportunity to stop him. It was also shown that Super Saiyan Gotenks was much quicker then Piccolo, meaning chasing him would be futile.

I've yet to see a statement where anybody says that Gotenks surpassed Boo.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

You make a good point about standing ki. However, he was capable of immediately deducing that Base Gotenks was no match for Boo, and also capable of doing the same with Super Boo and SSJ Gotenks. The fact that he was able to tell that Gotenks couldn't do anything against Boo two different times means that he was capable of gauging Gotenks' strength. Whether Toriyama forgot about standing ki and whatnot, I don't know.

 

[kriss-]

You make a good point about standing ki. However, he was capable of immediately deducing that Base Gotenks was no match for Boo, and also capable of doing the same with Super Boo and SSJ Gotenks.

Piccolo is not a reliable source during the Majin Boo Saga. He thinks Gotenks Base Post might stand a chance but he immediately contradicts his statement. He made this determination before Gotenks even began to fight, so he's jumping the ball.

Piccolo believed Majin Vegeta was only a little stronger then Kid Gohan SSj2, whereas Teen Gohan SSj2 says that Kid Gohan's battle power might be sufficient in defeating Boo, meanwhile Majin Vegeta laughs at this level of battle power and says himself and Goku are far beyond it.

Piccolo is simply not reliable.

The fact that he was able to tell that Gotenks couldn't do anything against Boo two different times means that he was capable of gauging Gotenks' strength. Whether Toriyama forgot about standing ki and whatnot, I don't know.

Gotenks Pre-Rosat never actually powered up to full power, he was more-or-less just messing around. Therefore there is no way for Piccolo to tell how powerful Gotenks had actually become, hence the speed test. But because speed does not correlate with strength means that Gotenks saying he's as strong as he is fast is a false pretense.

The burden of proof still lies on you to prove that Gotenks Pre-Rosat surpassed Innocent Boo and that Gotenks Base Pre surpassed Piccolo.

As I showed above, character reactions on their own are not a reliable source, because Krillen immediately says that Gotenks might win based on his own self confidence, this is completely different from saying 'Well his Ki definitely surpassed Boo, he can definitely win!'. Nowhere is this stated.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

So we shouldn't trust any of Piccolo's statements? He wasn't technically wrong about Gohan < Majin Vegeta, and I'm not opening the can of worms that is Gotenks Post. He was completely right about Base Gotenks pre < Fat Boo, and nothing contradicts SSJ Gotenks pre < Super Boo. Dende also seems to back up Piccolo on that issue, with the same worried expression. It seems to me that Piccolo is a lot more reliable than the other Earthlings in the Boo saga. Also, I don't get why you think Piccolo's reaction means nothing. He wouldn't have been shocked by the power of someone weaker than him. He just knew that he still couldn't beat Boo.

 

[kriss-]

So we shouldn't trust any of Piccolo's statements? He wasn't technically wrong about Gohan < Majin Vegeta, and I'm not opening the can of worms that is Gotenks Post.

Piccolo has shown that he isn't completely reliable unless something else supports it. I've provided enough scenarios to prove this.

He was completely right about Base Gotenks pre < Fat Boo, and nothing contradicts SSJ Gotenks pre < Super Boo.

Gotenks Base Pre formed and was obviously so inferior to Innocent Boo that Piccolo determined that it wouldn't of mattered if he powered up. His battle power was likely around Piccolo's or below for Piccolo to be capable of accurately determining how strong he is. During every other scenario where the battle powers deal with something far beyond him, he loses his credibility and is unable to determine anything accurately.

Also, I don't get why you think Piccolo's reaction means nothing. He wouldn't have been shocked by the power of someone weaker than him. He just knew that he still couldn't beat Boo.

I've shown why reactions on their own are not reliable.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I've shown why reactions on their own are not reliable.

There's not only the reaction, but Piccolo calling Gotenks incredible as well. Everyone on the lookout seemed impressed with Gotenks' power, which I don't think they should've been if he was far weaker than a regular Super Saiyan. But I kind of tire of this debate, as it seems like we're never going to convince each other of anything, so how about we agree to disagree.

 

[kriss-]

There's not only the reaction, but Piccolo calling Gotenks incredible as well. Everyone on the lookout seemed impressed with Gotenks' power, which I don't think they should've been if he was far weaker than a regular Super Saiyan. But I kind of tire of this debate, as it seems like we're never going to convince each other of anything, so how about we agree to disagree.

Piccolo called Majin Vegeta incredible, but he couldn't determine that Innocent Boo was much stronger then Vegeta. Vegeta was already aware that he was at a disadvantage but he went anyways.

Vegeta calls Goku's 5,000 battle power amazing and both him and Nappa was astounded by it.

Being impressed by a lower battle power doesn't mean anything.

The burden of proof still lies on you to prove that Gotenks Base Pre surpassed Piccolo and/or Gotenks Ssj Pre surpassed Innocent Boo. As final-wrap up I'll make one more point:

Gotenks Base Pre-Rosat is never once implied to be stronger then Piccolo. However, once against, Gotenks took off. Regarding Gotenks SSj Pre, we're shown that Gotenks is incredibly fast, but we're not told that he is incredibly powerful in either scenario. So logically, I can determine that Gotenks Base Pre could possibly be faster then Piccolo, but not nearly as powerful. There is nothing wrong with this since nothing contradicts it besides speculating that 'Well... this is what should of happened'.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Vegeta and Nappa were expecting Goku to have a power level of around 400, so it is no surprise that they are astounded by his power level growing to 5,000 in less than a year, especially since he was a low class. Beyond that, Vegeta is later shown to be superior to Goku, and there is nothing explicitly saying Base Gotenks pre < Piccolo, so we don't know if Piccolo's reaction is similar to Vegeta's reaction.

I have a question, do you think the individual SSJ kids are stronger than Base Gotenks pre?

 

[kriss-]

Vegeta and Nappa were expecting Goku to have a power level of around 400, so it is no surprise that they are astounded by his power level growing to 5,000 in less than a year, especially since he was a low class.

By the virtue of your argument, this means that Goku at 5,000 is stronger then Vegeta because Vegeta called him incredible.

This isn't the case.

This hypothesis isn't reliable to determine anything.

Beyond that, Vegeta is later shown to be superior to Goku, and there is nothing explicitly saying Base Gotenks pre < Piccolo, so we don't know if Piccolo's reaction is similar to Vegeta's reaction.

The point isn't justifying if Gotenks is stronger then Piccolo, the point is that that sort of reasoning on it's own is hypocritical towards previous scenarios where it's shown to not be true.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Taking a look at the strength checker, Vegeta never called Goku incredible, and instead seemed to be more shocked by the fact that he went from far below Raditz to above Nappa in less than a year. That sort of growth was unheard of for a low-class Saiyan like him, so he was surprised.

 

[kriss-]

Taking a look at the strength checker, Vegeta never called Goku incredible, and instead seemed to be more shocked by the fact that he went from far below Raditz to above Nappa in less than a year. That sort of growth was unheard of for a low-class Saiyan like him, so he was surprised.

He was surprised in the same sense that Piccolo was to Gotenks. So were Kuririn and Yamcha, but they never felt compelled to say that he was strong enough to take Boo.

Piccolo about Majin Vegeta:

Context: as Vegeta fights Boo
Piccolo: “[Vegeta]’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power

However, Majin Vegeta already knew that Innocent Boo was far stronger then him, but he went anyways. Piccolo is unable to tell that Innocent Boo is stronger then Majin Vegeta, or Kid Gohan for that matter, whose battle power was long surpassed when Boo did his first power-up against Dabura.

Arguing that a characters reaction reflects how another characters strength compares to everybody who came before him is sheer conjecture and I hope you see the problem with this.

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo : “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”

Piccolo said Gotenks ki is really incredible... "really", like he already had an estimations about Gotenks' power (enough to beat fat boo) and this happened to be true. Piccolo questioning his speed doesn't imply Gotenks' ki isn't up to the job at all.

Later we see Gotenks giving several lips around the Earth and even stating he took a "nap" before Piccolo arrived. So, we got a response: Gotenks' speed isn't the issue either.

There's nothing contradicting Gotenks SSJ being > Fat Boo, moreover is the right based on Goku stating it more than once and Piccolo confirming his assessment saying his ki is really incredible.

 

[kriss-]

Being called incredible is the same as being called tremendous. Yet Piccolo doesn't acknowledge that Vegeta is inferior to Innocent Boo, even though he really was, nor does he acknowledge the Gotenks is inferior to Boo, which he probably was since nothing conforms to the ideal.

Speed doesn't correlate with strength, so arguing that Gotenks is strong as he is fast is a reach.

Argument
b) Goku says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.

Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.

Further-more, Goku stated that the boys can defeat Boo if they just perform fusion successfully. After feeling the power of Goten and Trunks, he changes his hypothesis to them 'perfecting' fusion and applies the word gamble.

Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.

Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.

Argument: Piccolo let them sleep after seeing Gotenks Super Saiyan, this means he thinks the fusion is strong enough.

Counter-Argument: Piccolo let the boys sleep prior to even merging successfully for the first time, and they only had 1 day left to learn the fusion. This argument is bullshit.