Base Gotenks Range

FeatsofPower

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What I think is that is a pretty weird case;
So what do you think Piccolo's reasoning is?

No, he is weaker, SSJ3 Goku can hold back at effort, but he can't suppress his ki, his ki is always the same.
Sure, but Goku needs his full effort to defeat Majin Buu. Which means, Majin Buu is Super Saiyan 3 tier.


Base Gotenks surpasses this level of Majin Buu as well, seen during BoG in the anime.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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So what do you think Piccolo's reasoning is?
I can't give you a straight answer.
Sure, but Goku needs his full effort to defeat Majin Buu. Which means, Majin Buu is Super Saiyan 3 tier.


Base Gotenks surpasses this level of Majin Buu as well, seen during BoG in the anime.
Even though, I think there's hardly anything to quantify from both fights, Buu wasn't completely defeated until Beerus thrown him to Gohan, he still kept coming back whereas Gotenks seems to be defeated easier in relation.
 
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Goku9001

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I think Piccolo claiming that Super Saiyan Gotenks' ki was incredible means that based on battle power alone, Gotenks was stronger than Fat Buu. That's in contrast to Base Gotenks where Piccolo flat out sensed his power and stated that he had no chance. Piccolo asks Gotenks to showcase his speed so he can cover his bases.
 

FeatsofPower

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This is honestly the toughest issue to deal with.

Base Gotenks supreme strength is clearly showcased. In BoG, Base Gotenks > Majin Buu is definitely implied. Which really sways things a lot imo.

So, you can either dismiss Base Gotenks power completely, or you have to figure out this nightmare of a situation.

Either Gotenks Super Saiyan power-up is puny comparable to the standard power-up for Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan 3 is a power-up comparable to Super Saiyan.

This is extreme.

Which way are you guys leaning as of late?
 

FeatsofPower

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I honestly just consider the Base Gotenks statements as gags to prevent bloating.
It might be the best path. For all fusions to get such a minimal multiplier seems quite absurd.

Why would Vegetto, Kefla, and Gogeta be getting such minimal improvements.

Unfortunately Super advocates for Base Gotenks > Majin Buu according to Piccolo right after Beerus stomps Base Gotenks.

It's such a difficult decision, the author really left us in a bind here.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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@FeatsofPower Considering that Piccolo never observed Fat Buu fighting SSJ3 Goku that is another point in favour to how Gotenks is more impressive in his mind.
 

FeatsofPower

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@FeatsofPower Considering that Piccolo never observed Fat Buu fighting SSJ3 Goku that is another point in favour to how Gotenks is more impressive in his mind.
It's not. Everyone seems to be able to gauge Goku's power accurately. Piccolo is so keenly aware of Goku's power, he even is able to tell that Goku isn't going all out, and if he did go all out, he'd be able to defeat Majin Buu.

Fusion is supreme, even above Goku going all out. It doesn't have to be by a tremendous amount though imo.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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It's not. Everyone seems to be able to gauge Goku's power accurately. Piccolo is so keenly aware of Goku's power, he even is able to tell that Goku isn't going all out, and if he did go all out, he'd be able to defeat Majin Buu.
But aren't able to tell that SSJ3 Goku can defeat Fat Buu? I mean, Piccolo stating that Buu has never fought anyone as strong as Gotenks and that his strength is at least on par with him (in Viz said being his equal) complicate things a little bit. All of this from Piccolo's perspective, though.
Fusion is supreme, even above Goku going all out. It doesn't have to be by a tremendous amount though imo.
Agree with SSJ3 Gotenks being superior to Goku. Nothing suggests Gotenks being superior to Goku before of that.
 

FeatsofPower

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But aren't able to tell that SSJ3 Goku can defeat Fat Buu? I mean, Piccolo stating that Buu has never fought anyone as strong as Gotenks and that his strength is at least on par with him (in Viz said being his equal) complicate things a little bit. All of this from Piccolo's perspective, though.
Where is the complication?

Piccolo can tell that Goku can defeat Buu.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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Where is the complication?

Piccolo can tell that Goku can defeat Buu.
In Piccolo's mind:
-Buu hasn't fought anyone as strong as Gotenks. Okay, until then: there is no issue.
-Proceeds to say that his strength is at least on par with him and then says he is getting flustered, as if nobody had fought on par with him.

Super Saiyan Gotenks is said to be stronger than Goku.
And then we have "I wanted them to manage things one way or another."
 

FeatsofPower

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n Piccolo's mind:
-Buu hasn't fought anyone as strong as Gotenks. Okay, until then: there is no issue.
-Proceeds to say that his strength is at least on par with him and then says he is getting flustered, as if nobody had fought on par with him.
What's your point here.

And then we have "I wanted them to manage things one way or another."
Managing things doesn't mean what we think it means. People have used the term "manage something" to imply easily defeating opponents multiple times.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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What's your point here.
That Piccolo's chain and his thoughts aren't consistent, in Piccolo's mind the whole reason, Super Buu is getting flustered is due to him fighting against someone as strong as Gotenks and that someone is on par with him, meaning that he hasn't fought anyone evenly before, when that clearly isn't the case with Fat Buu and Goku.
Managing things doesn't mean what we think it means. People have used the term "manage something" to imply easily defeating opponents multiple times.
Outside from Dabura instance or Goku thinking that if they have Vegeta or Gohan they could manage something against Majin Buu, it can also means to taking decission that can't be actually assured to be confident of, such as Gohan, Krilin and Vegeta vs 1st form Freeza or Goku and Vegeta against Kid Buu, even then the meaning is telling.
 
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FeatsofPower

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That Piccolo's chain and his thoughts aren't consistent, in Piccolo's mind the whole reason, Super Buu is getting flustered is due to him fighting against someone as strong as Gotenks and that someone is on par with him, meaning that he hasn't fought anyone evenly before, when that clearly isn't the case with Fat Buu and Goku.
Goku and Buu were both holding back, Buu wasn't taking it seriously. This is the first time he's fighting all out and someone is fighting evenly.

Either way, this cannot be used as an excuse to minimize Gotenks, this makes absolutely no sense. This has nothing to do with Super Saiyan Gotenks vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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Goku and Buu were both holding back, Buu wasn't taking it seriously. This is the first time he's fighting all out and someone is fighting evenly.
Goku was, Fat Buu wasn't. Gotenks was actually outclassing Buu.
Either way, this cannot be used as an excuse to minimize Gotenks, this makes absolutely no sense. This has nothing to do with Super Saiyan Gotenks vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
No, the discussion is in Piccolo's mind which one is more impressive between Fat Buu and Base Gotenks.
@FeatsofPower Considering that Piccolo never observed Fat Buu fighting SSJ3 Goku that is another point in favour to how Gotenks is more impressive in his mind.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Why is Dende so happy that they might not have to fight? Shouldn’t it be an easy fight for Gotenks? @FeatsofPower

1665148050716.jpeg

So, why didn't Piccolo knew that Goku didn't actually tell Buu someone stronger than him will appear?

That scene has always been regarded as a plothole. Either we didn’t see Goku saying that or Babidi had already stopped transmitting. Babidi said the whole world is watching the fight:
1665112606319.jpeg
 
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