Base Saiyans at the Boo arc

[ahill1]

How strong did the non fused base Saiyans become at the battle against Boo? Include both the kids and the adults.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

At least #18 tier based on the Mighty Mask fight and Vegeta not believing the no SSJ rule would change his superiority. I'd personally place the kids and Gohan in between #18 and #17, whilst placing Vegeta and Goku far above #17's level.
They could potentially be far higher depending how you view things such as the kili levels or Dabura's selection process, but that seems like a far less solid take on things.

 

[SSJ2]

Somewhere between 17/18 and Imperfect Cell post humans, though much closer to the Androids than Cell.

 

[ahill1]

At least #18 tier based on the Mighty Mask fight and Vegeta not believing the no SSJ rule would change his superiority. I'd personally place the kids and Gohan in between #18 and #17, whilst placing Vegeta and Goku far above #17's level.
They could potentially be far higher depending how you view things such as the kili levels or Dabura's selection process, but that seems like a far less solid take on things.

Would you say having Vegeta at #17's level works as well? The fact that not even when using full power (though she wasn't far from it) #18 proved to be superior to the base kids makes it hard for me to have Vegeta above that level considering the gap between father and children didn't seem gigantic -- like 1.5x at most imo, which is already lowballing the kids a little.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Would you say having Vegeta at #17's level works as well? The fact that not even when using full power (though she wasn't far from it) #18 proved to be superior to the base kids makes it hard for me to have Vegeta above that level considering the gap between father and children didn't seem gigantic -- like 1.5x at most imo, which is already lowballing the kids a little.

That sort of gap is already far above what I'd consider to be between #18 and #17 and we must take into account the costume's restrictive nature to the performance, of which still made the base kids equal to #18 as evidenced by the fight and supplementary material such as Daizenshuu entries.

 

[SSJ2]

In what way was 18 superior to the kids? Trunks was able to parry almost every attack using his arms only, while sitting on Goten’s shoulders. They should be roughly equals.

 

[ahill1]

Would you say having Vegeta at #17's level works as well? The fact that not even when using full power (though she wasn't far from it) #18 proved to be superior to the base kids makes it hard for me to have Vegeta above that level considering the gap between father and children didn't seem gigantic -- like 1.5x at most imo, which is already lowballing the kids a little.

That sort of gap is already far above what I'd consider to be between #18 and #17 and we must take into account the costume's restrictive nature to the performance, of which still made the base kids equal to #18 as evidenced by the fight and supplementary material such as Daizenshuu entries.

Well yeah, I'm not saying there's a 1.5x between the cyborg twins, that'd be my estimated advantage Vegeta would have over the kids while on same forms. If #18 while holding back a little could already fend off and outperform Mighty Mask well enough, leaving the base kids at whatever portion #18 was using, which I estimated to be ~75% or so, it'd be tough to have Vegeta as too distanced from #18 as via scaling he shouldn't be all that superior to the boys in same forms. Does it make sense?

The Daizenshuu stated that, but it did seem to be narrating what happened during their fight without regards to suppression or anything. The kids seemed to be doing fairly well against her, but simply observing such from their fight isn't too much telling when later on it seems we get evidence for #18 to have been holding back -- why'd she appear calm at first when seeing the kids turning into SSJs if the power to which her using full power to battle against couldn't be overwhelmed has just increased over the roof? Before saying she was laughing and calm because she found out who the mysterious fighter really was, she stated she didn't believe they could be as powerful (while the blast was not that much above her as she could dodge it... and such should be obvious if their base strength was already on par with her) and her phrasing, as she said "change of plans, I need to defeat them now" implies she thought it'd be funny to play around with them a bit, which doesn't jive so well with a character who just saw someone increasing their power a lot when the former state was already = her.

I dunno, the androids saga SSJs seems to be the ceiling for the base kids' strength to me provided it, forcing Vegeta and Goku not to be too distanced from #18 and #17 either while confined to their base states.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not very different from when they first became Super Saiyans: Around Base Goku’s own power when he fought Freeza. They have transformations for a reason, you know.

 

[SSJ2]

Oh really? I didn’t know.

 

[ahill1]

Transformations would still be increasing their power by a n factor anyway, so it's not like the base state developing that the ssj would lose its usefulness.

 

[SSJ2]

Nd it makes no sense that Goku’s SSJ is able to increase in power, but his Base stays locked. Why is SSJ not locked as well? GSM I truly can’t wrap my head around some of the things that you spout these days.

 

[ahill1]

He operates under the logic that once a Saiyajin achieves SSJ his base can't evolve anymore because the limit imposed to their base state is the reason the SSJ was introducced, as Vegeta also states he ran into his own limits before turning into a SSJ.

I'm a simple man as well. If the SSJ evolves, so does the base state. But I have been doing jiggles and wiggles here and there, now I operate under a not fixed SSJ multiplier, and change the SSJ's boost alongside the story implications, with it varying from 50x, to 20x, to 2x lol. AT didn't write the story with multipliers on mind and likely treated the SSJ as a mere boost not limiting the implications to the given 50x multiplier, so I think that changing its multiplier to accomodate the implications of that time makes you closer to the true intention. Mutlipliers seem like a blow to the story's flexibility and puts a tool on creativity.

 

[SSJ2]

I’m fine with that if you have evidence within the story to back up your claim. There’s nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box, at least if it’s in the name of accuracy. However, to make a vague, unsupported statement without bringing up any objective evidence is not right. “They have transformations for a reason you know” comes across as anyone outside of GSM is not reading the story correctly, so I take issue with that specifically.

So what’s next, Oob is on par with Namek Base Goku? The story blatantly shuts that “logic” down.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Sorry Q, my hurry to type just makes my posts come across as sassy pot shots. I’ll provide some better explanation later.

 

[SSJ2]

It ok.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

For me it's a very simple matter: If they can just train in their lower forms, why to transformations even exist? in and out of universe this makes little sense. A while ago I did some digging, and Toriyama actually seems to share this perspective with me:

Incidentally, what led you to have Goku become a Super Saiyan, or the villains to level up?
I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something.

And thinking about it, the story seems to support this notion as well. Vegeta says on Namek there is no warrior that can be as powerful as a Super Saiyan, and later admits he didn't even want to become a Super Saiyan, but had to in other to compete with Goku:

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P3.1-2
Vegeta: “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…That’s supposed to just be a stupid tradition…And even if the legend were true…only I would have the potential to become a Super Saiyan.”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Guides like Daizenshuu 7, SEG and EML to describe something similar about how Super Saiyan surpasses a Saiyan's natural limit or how Vegeta became a SSJ upon hitting his own limits. By the Boo Arc we even have Goku being impressed by Kaioshin being able of one shoting Freeza and Beerus flat out saying Goku can't beat Freeza without SSJ years later, so Saiyans aren't supposed to be that impressive without their transformations.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Base Saiyans > Pui Pui > Shin > Piccolo > Androids

 

[Papasmurf]

Super Saiyan forms saw a substantial power upgrade in the Cell arc, and no reason to assume it just resulted in larger multipliers when it was stated that Gohan's Z sword training increased both his base and SSJ.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Super Saiyan forms saw a substantial power upgrade in the Cell arc, and no reason to assume it just resulted in larger multipliers when it was stated that Gohan's Z sword training increased both his base and SSJ.

Actually, the Cell Saga made quite clear the power ups they went through didn't necessarily raise their base. Goku tells Gohan he's going to hold him back until he becomes a Super Saiyan, and he focus on surpassing the Super Saiyan inside the Rosat.

Goku dismisses Kaioshin's hopes pretty quickly by saying he doesn't even know how strong Gohan is, what should be the case if such correlation between forms even existed. Kaioshin was simply being over-optimistic

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Actually, the Cell Saga made quite clear the power ups they went through didn't necessarily raise their base. Goku tells Gohan he's going to hold him back until he becomes a Super Saiyan, and he focus on surpassing the Super Saiyan inside the Rosat.

Their training was to surpass the Super Saiyan wall, so it wouldn't make sense to put forth the full extent of the training until Gohan had done so. Moreover, bringing himself to his limit would be more difficult for Goku if he couldn't push himself to his true peak in training through sparring in SSJ, something that he did in their previous training yet was never truly challenged; likely being what limited his gains there.

Goku dismisses Kaioshin's hopes pretty quickly by saying he doesn't even know how strong Gohan is, what should be the case if such correlation between forms even existed. Kaioshin was simply being over-optimistic

He'd already seen SS2 Gohan at that point, so it seems to be more of the typical case of Actual Ki >>> Standing Ki, much like how SSJ Goku was apparently someone that #19 could still handle by Gero's estimations.