Base Saiyans at the Boo arc

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Trunks was talking about how he got power to destroy the Androids and was going to kick Cell's ass now. So unless you think Cell's statement means “…Looks like you really have improved [enough to kill the Androids and perhaps me with this Kiai you just used]…” it's not a good explanation imo.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Also worth noting Cell knew nothing about Trunks outside of Gero's spy robots, which we know to be pretty ass when it comes to estimating large powers.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

or it could also mean trunks has shown cell that he's higher than his data indicated, besides in the boo saga it's arguable to some that trunks/goten ~ #18, so maybe that's not all that wrong

 

[SSJ2]

It’s pretty straightforward. Cell thought Trunks was weaker than the Androids. When Trunks insinuates that he destroyed 17 & 18, Cell was in disbelief. After Trunks blew him out of the city with the kiai he saw all that he needed to see. He knew Trunks wasn’t bluffing. How did he gather this from Trunks if he was displaying a power on par with Namek Base Goku?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It’s pretty straightforward. Cell thought Trunks was weaker than the Androids. When Trunks insinuates that he destroyed 17 & 18, Cell was in disbelief. After Trunks blew him out of the city with the kiai he saw all that he needed to see. He knew Trunks wasn’t bluffing. How did he gather this from Trunks if he was displaying a power on par with Namek Base Goku?

You’re repeating yourself SSJ2, and you haven’t even answered me. Does Trunks firing that Kiai alone have enough power to kill 17 and 18?

The Kiai Cannon is a technique specialized in pushing much stronger enemies, so that alone can’t possibly be what leads Cell to conclude it’s not a bluff. That’s illogical. The way I see it, it’s a confirmation that Trunks has been training: Trunks has been shown to be a very poor fighter in the past, so when he’s using a new technique it’s clear he’s learned some stuff.

or it could also mean trunks has shown cell that he's higher than his data indicated, besides in the boo saga it's arguable to some that trunks/goten ~ #18, so maybe that's not all that wrong

Even Android Arc Goku was much stronger than Gero’s data said, so that doesn’t have to mean much.

#18 admitted having trouble to hold back too much, so she’d be basically walking on eggshells to fight Mighty Mask without killing him. She can’t possibly be rivaled by the boys when even a SSJ Blast from them isn’t abover her by leaps and bounds.

 

[SSJ2]

I don’t see why the kiai being strong enough to kill 17 and 18 is relevant to the discussion. I never said anything about Base Trunks being able to kill 17 and 18, hence why I didn’t answer you. Cell knows Trunks has Super Saiyan beyond his Base form. It’s pretty simple for him to see that Trunks’ improvement would be enough for him to overcome the Androids, which is why he conceded that Trunks did get more powerful. Look at the manga panel where Cell admits Trunks did get stronger. He looks nervous based on what Trunks displayed. Cell wouldn’t be nervous about Trunks being able to perform a kiai. You are taking an illogical route to twist what is directly shown to fit your narrative.

You claim I am ignoring the context, but I find that ironic. Trunks technique is never brought up by Cell. The context is completely about Trunks having the power to destroy the Androids (and Cell himself as Trunks claimed). To say Cell was impressed by a basic attack is absurd.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So Cell is not surprised by the power Trunks’ displayed, but by the idea he’s gotten stronger. Sounds like exactly what I’m saying…

 

[Fantastische Hure]

they also tried to hold back with blast & still scared her a-lot

in cell's case tho, he still ended-up higher than trunks was pre-rosat (he defeated him in the other time-line) not only that, but wot other data would he have on trunks? trunks when he was 14, training with future gohan?

& even-then trunks was ssj when he was younger too

 

[VampireWicked]

Base Saiyans in the Buu Arc Below 50% Namek Frieza.

From 3Million to even 60Million Namek to Buu saga is a huge jump in PowerLevel.
It was established they were hitting their limits with SuperSaiyan in the Adnroid Arc as the need to go beyond G1 with G2, G3, then G4 & again with AscendedSaiyan (SS2) in The Majin Buu Saga with the aid of the Majin Spell & SuperSaiyan3, & Fusion.

For me it's a very simple matter: If they can just train in their lower forms, why to transformations even exist? in and out of universe this makes little sense. A while ago I did some digging, and Toriyama actually seems to share this perspective with me:

Incidentally, what led you to have Goku become a Super Saiyan, or the villains to level up?
I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something.

And thinking about it, the story seems to support this notion as well. Vegeta says on Namek there is no warrior that can be as powerful as a Super Saiyan, and later admits he didn't even want to become a Super Saiyan, but had to in other to compete with Goku:

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P3.1-2
Vegeta: “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…That’s supposed to just be a stupid tradition…And even if the legend were true…only I would have the potential to become a Super Saiyan.”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Guides like Daizenshuu 7, SEG and EML to describe something similar about how Super Saiyan surpasses a Saiyan's natural limit or how Vegeta became a SSJ upon hitting his own limits. By the Boo Arc we even have Goku being impressed by Kaioshin being able of one shoting Freeza and Beerus flat out saying Goku can't beat Freeza without SSJ years later, so Saiyans aren't supposed to be that impressive without their transformations.

Which adds even more truth to the statement by Beerus.

Spoiler

[youtube]zxIzrmGOwQE[/youtube]

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Beerus’s statement is different in the dbs manga, he says that when Goku is in SSJ2.

 

[VampireWicked]

Beerus’s statement is different in the dbs manga, he says that when Goku is in SSJ2.

Yes but the Anime is a different continuity so what Beerus said in the Anime holds true.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I don't want to make a new thread about this topic.

So just a while ago I was watching a clip of SS3 Goku Vs Bootenks, the latter turned into Buccolo once Gotenks fusion run out so does this implied that

Piccolo > Base Goten + Trunks?

Therefore once can assume that since a lot of you guys believe that the kids are that far from the adult Saiyans, can we put the adult Base Saiyans around Piccolo or a bit stronger? Just a thought i had from my weak DB memory.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Fearless Saiyajin[/mention] Boo’s absorptions don’t just grant him the power of those he absorbs, but also the intellect. So it makes little sense for just the strongest power to wield the biggest influence, specially when Dai Kaioshin had more influence over Boo than the stronger South Kaioshin.

We also have no idea of how far above Piccolo is from the kids, so saying the Base Adults are around him is a shot in the dark.

 

[Void]

They're irrelevant like they always have been. Base form is useless after Namek.

 

[SSJ2]

Yet somehow they are more relevant than Yeast Kaioshin

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Base Saiyans didn’t warn the others about Majin Boo or take Gohan to pull the Z Sword though

 

[Void]

Yet somehow they are more relevant than Yeast Kaioshin

Kaioshin's strength varies by scene though.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

@Fearless Saiyajin Boo’s absorptions don’t just grant him the power of those he absorbs, but also the intellect. So it makes little sense for just the strongest power to wield the biggest influence, specially when Dai Kaioshin had more influence over Boo than the stronger South Kaioshin.

We also have no idea of how far above Piccolo is from the kids, so saying the Base Adults are around him is a shot in the dark.

Kaioshins =/= Humans, though. For humans, the strongest gives more influence than an influence.