Base Saiyans at the Boo arc

[Fantastische Hure]

i like to believe that too (wot great-saiya-meng said) & normally i think like that too

ssj is jst a power-up that's higher than they can ever be without transforming

but i also think there's some cherry-picking going-on in that post

daizenshuu & seg also gave a multiplier for ssj & then there's also the interview with AT in the daizenshuu where they talk abt the multiplier, even-tho i don't think AT actually rly thought abt it & jst gave an answer like that because they asked, but who knws? maybe he did

daizenshuu also said goten & trunks fought "evenly" with #18 or something like that

then there's also (i think that's def. in db-super. i'm not sure abt the movie), but whis, when he explained ssj to bills, said they now have a technique called ssj where they can multiply their power multi-fold or several-fold

zamasu also said it, but that's def. from db-super anime

then there's cell & trunks which i think is like the hardest to dispute from the original, because you can think of an alternative for almost everything-else but here it just seems spelled-out bluntly

AT probably didn't care abt the regular states in the cell-saga anymore & then for wtvr reason in the boo-saga he thought he could show them in their regular-states again, so it comes-off as contradictory because the idea of their regular states increasing a-lot was never rly brought-up before

 

[SSJ2]

Can you imagine Namek Goku blasting Imperfect Cell 10 miles in the air?

 

[ahill1]

Tbh I prefer looking at the SSJ as a boost. It's a boost, not a multiplier and I think the value of the boost is changed according to the period of the story. When doing BPs list tho it's convenient looking at it as a multiplier, but I just treat it as a varying multiplier that changes according to the implications behind the base Saiyans... since AT was probably not writing the story with a multiplier in mind, I think that shaping up its multiplier according to the moment and the implications gets you closer to what figure would better represent the characters in a given point in time.

I've it fluctuating from 50x at the beginning to 7x at the androids saga, to close to 20x in the boo arc and to as low as 2.5x for fusions.

 

[SSJ2]

Sounds logical.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Their training was to surpass the Super Saiyan wall, so it wouldn't make sense to put forth the full extent of the training until Gohan had done so. Moreover, bringing himself to his limit would be more difficult for Goku if he couldn't push himself to his true peak in training through sparring in SSJ, something that he did in their previous training yet was never truly challenged; likely being what limited his gains there.

But if they can just train in base and it would also result in SSJ powering up as Kaioshin suggests, then there's no point to say achieving SSJ is the first step.

Goku's attitude towards the training would seem like they have already reached such peak. He tells Roshi that surpassing the Super Saiyan is the least he can do

Goku dismisses Kaioshin's hopes pretty quickly by saying he doesn't even know how strong Gohan is, what should be the case if such correlation between forms even existed. Kaioshin was simply being over-optimistic

He'd already seen SS2 Gohan at that point, so it seems to be more of the typical case of Actual Ki >>> Standing Ki, much like how SSJ Goku was apparently someone that #19 could still handle by Gero's estimations.
[/quote]

But they've been watching Gohan training this whole time and he even just gave a perfomance that impressed everyone before breaking the sword. They should know rather well the extension of Base Gohan's power.

Can you imagine Namek Goku blasting Imperfect Cell 10 miles in the air?

Not sure, but can you imagine Namek Goku blasting Raditz 10 miles into the air? Cell wasn't even powered up man. Besides, pushing people is not that impressive.

Tbh I prefer looking at the SSJ as a boost. It's a boost, not a multiplier and I think the value of the boost is changed according to the period of the story. When doing BPs list tho it's convenient looking at it as a multiplier, but I just treat it as a varying multiplier that changes according to the implications behind the base Saiyans... since AT was probably not writing the story with a multiplier in mind, I think that shaping up its multiplier according to the moment and the implications gets you closer to what figure would better represent the characters in a given point in time.

I've it fluctuating from 50x at the beginning to 7x at the androids saga, to close to 20x in the boo arc and to as low as 2.5x for fusions.

But why? Do you have a in universe reasoning for all this Ahill?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

that was enough for cell to say trunks wasn't bluffing abt being higher tho. it's not like a trunks kicking boo or piccolo kicking freeza situation because neither of them saw it coming or expected it.

 

[ahill1]

what do you mean, GSM? proof of what?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think we need to look a bit deeper than that [mention]Fantastische Hure[/mention]. If it was about Trunks' power wouldn't that mean Base Trunks is stronger than Cell?

[mention]ahill1[/mention] from a in universe perspective, what is the reason for the SSJ multiplier to vary from 2.5x all the way to 50x?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

it doesn't have to mean that at all. all it could mean is trunks as he was against cell was higher than cell thought, so trunks >>/> ssj trunks (debut) maybe

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku's attitude towards the training would seem like they have already reached such peak. He tells Roshi that surpassing the Super Saiyan is the least he can do

Doing that would only waste limited time when surpassing Super Saiyan was Goku's main plan for the training and something he wasn't sure he could do.

But they've been watching Gohan training this whole time and he even just gave a perfomance that impressed everyone before breaking the sword. They should know rather well the extension of Base Gohan's power.

Goku said he wasn't sure if Gohan could win with what he displayed, which is a pretty big difference from him being no match at his peak prior. It seems pretty solid evidence Gohan's base definitely made major improvements. Moreover, Boo's difficult to read Ki and regeneration would only add to Goku's scepticism.

Cell wasn't even powered up man. Besides, pushing people is not that impressive.

This was immediately after Cell had commented on how Trunks couldn't even beat #17 and #18, let alone himself and after Trunks had revealed he had destroyed them. Moreover, Cell had plenty of time in between then and landing to resist the kiai's pushback and move forward if he was indeed as far from his full power as you imply.
Most importantly, Cell states Trunks has indeed gotten stronger, the kiai being testament of this.

But why? Do you have a in universe reasoning for all this Ahill?

There are a few things to support this, at least for SSJ Gotenks.

First, there's many things supporting Gotenks' base being on SS2 tier or so such as both he and Kuririn having some confidence in him beating someone who could defeat Vegeta. Unless believing SS3 to be 50x stronger than SS2, keeping the same boost for Gotenks doesn't work at all.
Including spinoffs, you also have both GT and Super supporting this with Rild's "less than half your power" statement comparing Goku's base and SSJ forms and SSJ Goku being suggested to be not far behind 10% SSB Vegeta respectively. You can argue they shouldn't be used for discussing the manga, but these are things within an official product that don't necessarily contradict the original manga. There's also the whole "canon" debate of Super due to Toriyama's involvement, but that's a rabbit hole left for another time.

 

[ahill1]

I like having it that low since it prevents inflation, but if we are looking for concrete evidence, I think it could be said that base Gotenks being implied to be a big deal, possibly even above Majin Vegeta while SSJ Gotenks being seemingly only moderately stronger than SSJ3 Goku given Piccolo's need to test his movements functions as a good point for the base to SSJ ration not being that elevated, unless we assume the SSJ2 and 3 transformations pack a big ass multiplier.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

& now that CC mentioned gotenks, i don't know whether this was brought-up before but trunks said gotenks (post-rosat) could probably fight with boo without becoming an ssj right-away, which'd imply gotenks (post-rosat) >>> ssj gotenks (pre-rosat)

 

[Captain Cadaver]

& now that CC mentioned gotenks, i don't know whether this was brought-up before but trunks said gotenks (post-rosat) could probably fight with boo without becoming an ssj right-away, which'd imply gotenks (post-rosat) >>> ssj gotenks (pre-rosat)

To be fair, fusions tend to be a completely different case from regular base Saiyans and Goten/Trunks aren't suggested to have made any major gains from the training compared to their fusion, given Piccolo didn't make any acknowledgement of their gains.

 

[SSJ2]

Cell tells Base Trunks to his face that he has improved a lot. That’s right boys, Base Trunks. Idk what more you need to show that there is no imaginary wall after reaching a new transformation.

Chapter: 420 (DBZ 226), P6.2
Context: after Trunks blows Cell out of the city
Cell: “…Looks like you really have improved…”

 

[Fantastische Hure]

& now that CC mentioned gotenks, i don't know whether this was brought-up before but trunks said gotenks (post-rosat) could probably fight with boo without becoming an ssj right-away, which'd imply gotenks (post-rosat) >>> ssj gotenks (pre-rosat)

To be fair, fusions tend to be a completely different case from regular base Saiyans and Goten/Trunks aren't suggested to have made any major gains from the training compared to their fusion, given Piccolo didn't make any acknowledgement of their gains.

that's true but the idea of normal saiyans surpassing transformations doesn't seem surprising to either trunks or goten & there doesn't seem to be much separating fusions & normal characters in trunks' statement. you'd think maybe it'd be pointed-out, if it was only for fusions.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

They were stronger than Moro.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

They were stronger than Moro.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Doing that would only waste limited time when surpassing Super Saiyan was Goku's main plan for the training and something he wasn't sure he could do.

But it was all he could do. Goku even said he'd give up if he failed at that.

Goku said he wasn't sure if Gohan could win with what he displayed, which is a pretty big difference from him being no match at his peak prior. It seems pretty solid evidence Gohan's base definitely made major improvements. Moreover, Boo's difficult to read Ki and regeneration would only add to Goku's scepticism.

Gohan mentioned how the Sword just made his arm stronger, so his gains being so outstanding sound far fetched. Goku probably just can't estimate how strong Gohan is based on his base form, just like Trunks couldn't estimate how strong Goku was just by seeing his base.

This was immediately after Cell had commented on how Trunks couldn't even beat #17 and #18, let alone himself and after Trunks had revealed he had destroyed them. Moreover, Cell had plenty of time in between then and landing to resist the kiai's pushback and move forward if he was indeed as far from his full power as you imply.
Most importantly, Cell states Trunks has indeed gotten stronger, the kiai being testament of this.

He's shown to do a power up to fight Trunks after landing. He might have been off supression, but it's not like he was at full power in fighting stance to take the Kiai.

The Kiai Cannon is a technique that doesn't require being the user to be very strong. As the Daizenshuu 7 puts it, the emphasis is on pushing the enemy away. Trunks using it wouldn't be a testment to how strong he's gotten, just to the fact he's been training and did get stronger.

There are a few things to support this, at least for SSJ Gotenks.

First, there's many things supporting Gotenks' base being on SS2 tier or so such as both he and Kuririn having some confidence in him beating someone who could defeat Vegeta. Unless believing SS3 to be 50x stronger than SS2, keeping the same boost for Gotenks doesn't work at all.
Including spinoffs, you also have both GT and Super supporting this with Rild's "less than half your power" statement comparing Goku's base and SSJ forms and SSJ Goku being suggested to be not far behind 10% SSB Vegeta respectively. You can argue they shouldn't be used for discussing the manga, but these are things within an official product that don't necessarily contradict the original manga. There's also the whole "canon" debate of Super due to Toriyama's involvement, but that's a rabbit hole left for another time.

That's out of universe. I'm interested in a logical explanation for why the Super Saiyan multiplier changes. Is it related to how much power they can draw? Their state of mind? Training? What? I'm asking for the theoretical side of it basically.

I mean you can chalk it up to magic on the Gotenks stuff, but there's still that theory on the SSJ multiplier being 10x (7x for Ahill) on the Android Arc and then going back to 50x. Why does it fall and rises later?

Cell tells Base Trunks to his face that he has improved a lot. That’s right boys, Base Trunks. Idk what more you need to show that there is no imaginary wall after reaching a new transformation.

Chapter: 420 (DBZ 226), P6.2
Context: after Trunks blows Cell out of the city
Cell: “…Looks like you really have improved…”

Take a look in your door SSJ2. I think you forgot the context in there...

Spoiler

 

[SSJ2]

What?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

so how'd cell knw trunks is higher now? are u saying trunks didn't knw how to do a basic kiai before & now he knws & that's why cell knws he has trained?