Base Saiyans Power (Buu Saga)

FeatsofPower

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I think it's not a bad idea to constantly vary the SSJ multiplier depending on what the plot demands.

For example having a multiplier of MSSJ being 500x the Base. The MSSJ would have the same strength as the USSJ, but with no loss of speed.

That way, you wouldn't have to be so minimalist in order to have Goten Base >= Android #18.

In the case of Saiyans that have their SSJ2 form, they can go back to having the SSJ multiplier being 50x stronger than the Base.

In this way you can have the Saiyan SSJ Adults being not astronomically stronger than the SSJ Children, but astronomically stronger in their Base states.
A varying Super Saiyan multiplier would surely fix quite a few issues.

The Gero implications definitely seem to imply Super Saiyan is only like a 10x boost or so. The Freeza Saga suggests 50x, but it's possible Goku got a huge zenkai and we just didn't know about it? Goku's Super Saiyan replaces his Kkx10 and we move on from there.

It might be the best option due to the consistency of Super Saiyan being smaller seemingly being the best option I'd say. And Super Saiyan has to be same everywhere. Because how is Broly supposed to have a different Super Saiyan multiplier than Kale and all the Dragonball Super/Super Saiyans. There needs to be something that ties it altogether.

It really is such a tough topic. There's times it feels like it needs to be really strong, but honestly, the Buu Saga and many other times, 10x feels appropriate. These massive boosts don't seem to be suggested by the author's thinking process hardly at all.

Varying Super Saiyan multipliers would indeed be helpful for the boys situation, but I don't know if there's any real implications there.
 

Goku9001

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A varying Super Saiyan multiplier would surely fix quite a few issues.

The Gero implications definitely seem to imply Super Saiyan is only like a 10x boost or so. The Freeza Saga suggests 50x, but it's possible Goku got a huge zenkai and we just didn't know about it? Goku's Super Saiyan replaces his Kkx10 and we move on from there.

It might be the best option due to the consistency of Super Saiyan being smaller seemingly being the best option I'd say. And Super Saiyan has to be same everywhere. Because how is Broly supposed to have a different Super Saiyan multiplier than Kale and all the Dragonball Super/Super Saiyans. There needs to be something that ties it altogether.

It really is such a tough topic. There's times it feels like it needs to be really strong, but honestly, the Buu Saga and many other times, 10x feels appropriate. These massive boosts don't seem to be suggested by the author's thinking process hardly at all.

Varying Super Saiyan multipliers would indeed be helpful for the boys situation, but I don't know if there's any real implications there.
I think you talked me out of the 10x SSJ multiplier. With the Super Saiyan Kids being roughly on par with the Cell Juniors, Base Kids ~ Android 18 and 10x Android Arc Super Saiyan Goku ~ SSJG3 Android Arc Goku> Initial Semi Cell, I feel like a 50x SSJ multiplier is sort of required. I tried to sidestep the issue by assuming the costume reduced the kids' overall battle power but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I don't think a 10x SSJ multiplier would work even if we assumed that Super Saiyan Grade 3 is not 10x Super Saiyan. The Grade 3 multiplier is at a bare minimum of 4-5x Super Saiyan which still makes it near impossible to maintain a 10x SSJ multiplier.
 

SSJ2

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Agreed, and it's easy to rationalize Vegeta being wrong, but what evidence is there that says Piccolo > Base? Other than the off screen Cell Jrs fight?
The context around Piccolo post RoSaT makes little sense if he was below Base Saiyan level.

Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”

Piccolo was already above Android 18 level pre RoSaT and clearly far surpassed where he was prior. Not only this, but he was only recently far ahead of the Super Saiyans. Goku wouldn't be showing him this level of respect if he went from >> SSJ level to << Base level.
 

ahill1

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I think the full power kids being around Cell Juniors level is the last placement I had them. Seems somewhat close to the adults, but still noticeably below 18 in base, who should be << base Gohan and Vegeta. The way the kids defended from the Cell Juniors also remembers me a little the way Trunks was straining Vs them in the CGs. So having the kids around Trunks/Vegeta/Cell Juniors [CGs] placement doesn't seem so far off.

Last I checked, I had the base kids ~ SSJ Vegeta from the androids arc. I kinda looked into the fight closely and I think it's likely 18 was initially using a similar level of effort Vs Mighty Mask, which I call her resting base, as she was Vs Vegeta in their first switching of hands. Kid Trunks seems to have similar problems as Vegeta in fending her, so that's where I drew the conclusion more or less that base kid Trunks ~ SSJ Vegeta [androids arc]... When 18 said she'd go all out Vs Vegeta, she smiles before charging at him. When 18 sees the boys went SSJ, she smiles too, likewise, so I think she was about to go FP there much like she did Vs Vegeta, but once she realized their SSJs are that strong she just realized she couldn't do anything in a h2h battle.

SSJ Vegeta androids saga -- 340
Android 18 (holding back initially) -- 340
Android 18 -- 450

Base Vegeta [CGs] -- 330
SSJ Vegeta -- 3,300

Cell Juniors -- 3,500

Base kid Trunks -- 340
--- SSJ -- 3,400

Android 18 (Vs Trunks initially) -- 340
Android 18 (FP) -- 450
SSJ Trunks' blast -- 500
SSJ Trunks FP -- 3,400


[Trunks seemed to strain blocking her but she had the edge in the fight because of their mobility .. but still the fact her attacks drew in similar struggle from SSj Vegeta and kid Trunks that sounds good for me to keep former SSJ Vegeta and base kid Trunks on the same level, placing the SSj kids at the Juniors level more or less, and I also like to think Vegeta and Trunks in their CGs, more or less, reached their old SSJ levels with merely their base states... Making base Vegeta and Trunks [CGs] ~ SSJ androids arc, which always seemed to fit well for me and is cool when looking at both Vegeta and Trunks in terms of improvement, with their base level being already high enough that it could output the same level they had when fighting 18]

Base teen Gohan -- 500
--- SSj -- 5,000

Base Vegeta -- 625
--- SSj - 6,250

Base Goku -- 750
--- SSJ -- 7,500

Android 16 -- 750


Piccolo in the CGs I've somewhat close to Vegeta and Trunks. I think the artwork depicting him in a not so more severed shape is proof enough that he wasn't as distanced from them. Weaker sure, but still strong enough that he could hold his own against enemies slightly stronger than Vegeta without suffering bad injuries. If Vegeta is somewhat above 50% Goku's level, Piccolo may be in that vicinity of 50% MSSj Goku... So applying a 10x SSJ multiplier, Piccolo would just be way above any base Saiyans in the Boo saga.


Piccolo [CGs] - 2,700
Piccolo [Boo saga] - 3,000

Gohan and Vegeta's confidence in fighting in base in the ship indicates they're above 18. As for Piccolo, that's more debatable. Vegeta, for once, didn't see him there. So we don't know if he knows Piccolo is joining. Gohan, knowing Piccolo well, knows Piccolo isn't there to win... Piccolo seemed happy knowing Goku would be there and seemingly wanted an old match, switch of hands for old times sake. He knew he didn't have a chance against them, he was there to make his presence. So if he sees Gohan or the other Saiyans fighting in base, he'd know they'd be doing that to hide their identities. So it wouldn't be in character for Piccolo to quickly defeat them, he'd likely hold back to a similar level just so he can have his old fight again for old time's sake. Gohan likely knows that based on Piccolo's mentality... So he doesn't see that as a danger. As for 18, he knows she's there to gather as much money as she can... So he knows she wouldn't lose the opportunity to defeat their bases if she could. So Gohan needs to be decently above 18 at least I'd say.


Kaioshin is way above Piccolo. The EML has him in CGs Goku's level. Since I've Gohan ~ CGs Goku under same forms, I prefer to keep Kaioshin a little bit below that since I think he's below all SSJ except kids. So 4,500 for him would do it, as that's a very big gap over Piccolo (4,500 Vs 3,000), tho the Shin Vs Piccolo debate may still be up for me, but going now for simplicity's sake.

Kaioshin -- 4,500


Pui Pui is trash, but to at least give him some credit, maybe he can be on Freeza's former level. That'd be 140 in the scaling above.

Yakkon is on par with base Goku. He threatens Goku at first, then Goku kicks him in the dark and Gohan thinks he should lend Goku a hand since he's fighting an enemy ~ his power and Goku would need to use his other senses which could handicap him a little.

Yakon -- 750

That just happens to be where I've placed 16 too, so the strongest base Saiyan is on par with 16 to me, and Yakon is a 16's level foe to me.


That's it. My breakdown of the whole situation. That part is a mess, I think that's the absolute best I could do with it.

While most would like to have the kids close to Gohan, I think keeping them relative to the Cell Juniors is enough to impress both Gohan and Vegeta and make them worry since they have such strength at such a young age. I think their first sparring with Goten forcing Gohan to fly may be indicative they're close, very close, but I think it's possible Gohan wasn't all reveled up, was more on a high level already, but not using his best possible available power, moreso testing Goten a little. Vegeta also made a case to test Trunks and had more problems than he had Vs Zarbon dodging his attacks and we sure as heck don't think Kid Trunks is closer to Vegeta than Zarbon was to Vegeta, right? That'd make Trunks 92% or so of Vegeta, so I sure think in both sparring sessions there was a little of a wiggle room to argue the unexpectedness of their strength caught the adults (or teens in Gohan's case) off guard and it'd be different were it an all out battle.

Still tho, I like to place them above Piccolo as Piccolo didn't make a case to stop Trunks when he went to save Vegeta from Boo and he didn't try it either with Goten knowing they'd be going to their deaths and adding to Vegeta's soul as he stated. So I think he couldn't stop them. Plus, he was pushed back when Goten and Trunks powered up in the lookout, which may not mean much, but since he had already knowledge of their strength, I think him being pushed back didn't come merely from a "being surprised position' but being weaker, intimidated by their powers. He also states Goten and Trunks are the only hope for Earth, as tiny as they might be and while that isn't conclusive enough as it may be moreso talking about their potential when using the RoSaT, I think adding all this together ads to the kids being > Piccolo as a minimum threshold placement.
 

FeatsofPower

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Hmm, yeah, you may be right about the 10x boost thing. I forgot about that issue. All hope is not lost though, but let's revisit that in a little. I think I found a pathway to further the discussion.

So we have one major issue that's present to me right now. We have a hard cap on the boys power.

Cell Jrs ~ Ssj Boys/Ssj CG Vegeta >>> Piccolo > Base Boys/Base CG Vegeta

We have definitive proof based on what Super has given us that CG Base Vegeta/Trunks cannot have surpassed Piccolo. This is actually really good.

But...

We have the monstrous gap between CG Vegeta and the MSSJ Saiyans. Which can be problematic.

Base Saiyans > Pui Pui > Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin >>> Piccolo > Base CG Vegeta

And remember, Teen Gohan is likely not much different than CG Goku. If anything Teen Gohan might be a bit stronger. So how in the world can there be that much spacing? It seems impossible at this point honestly. I'd say we'd be forced to make the Base Boys pretty close to Piccolo and use some minimal spacing for the other things.

Let me try it out. Forget about the Ssj boost for now, let's see if we can make any significant headway with the Base issue. I think we can at least make it the best possible option, although it might not work.



CG Base Goku 100
Kaioshin 100
Piccolo 70
CG Base Vegeta 60

Hmm, the idea that Kaioshin ~ CG Goku, but not SSJ, but Base is an interesting idea to play with considering the guides. But we still have an issue.

I mean, we can cheap out on the Kaioshin > Piccolo angle if necessary. It seems like we will have to. Because there's no way we can put Base Saiyans > Pui Pui > Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin with adequate room is Kaioshin is already at Base CG Goku. Hmm...

Pui Pui should be >>> Kaioshin as well. Which makes things even harder. And Yakon should be monstrously above Pui Pui. Making things probably impossible. Hmm...

You'd be forced to either make Teen Gohan comparable to Pui Pui, which might be something we can squeeze.

Or you have to try to justify why Base Teen Gohan ~ Base CG Gohan. I don't like the idea of making Base CG Vegeta any less than 60% of Base CG Goku, although if we really had to, we could probably drop him down to 55% if needed. Hmm... This is such a tough situation.

@ahill1

I can't agree with Piccolo > Base Saiyans. In Super, even Rof Base Gohan who is stupidly weak is above Piccolo. So that should end any discussion about how Base Saiyans stack up against Piccolo. And that's added to the wealth of information the Buu Saga provided about how Piccolo is nothing compared to the Base Saiyans. The Rosat just made the Saiyans monstrous powers compared to the Super Namek, that is what all the evidence suggests.
 

ahill1

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I still have Piccolo above them. I think all the implications from the Boo saga could be explained nicely, while Piccolo's portrayal of enduring fighting the Cell Juniors and Toriyama making a case to show Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks were the only ones who got through the assault very well is way more telling.

The first being Gohan and Vegeta's confidence in fighting in base I gave my reasons for that above. As for Piccolo being labeled as trash while the Saiyans were not, they were all suppressed to 0 there... So Babidi clearly used some kind of magic powers to estimate them... Maybe he managed to be told that 3 of them there had marvelous power, but that such power was in reference to their SSJ states, not base states... As SSJ is the only form which could effectively fill the meter, base could not. So it seems Babidi simply got the information they had marvelous power but was unaware at how much power they actually had... As proved, too, by him getting things wrong even regarding their base state power, when he thought Pui Pui could handle them all.

As for Shin's reactions, we may remember hs wasn't shitting his pants like that to SSJ2 Gohan... So his shock of base Vegeta, Yakon, all base Saiyans power, seem irrational given he witnessed Gohan ssj2 beforehand. So it may very well be a weakness in his character, fearing Boo so much he couldn't keep rationality. Either that, or Toriyama had a change of attitude in how Shin should react to the Saiyans --- he maybe thought he should be right there with then but changed it to him being fodder. We can even see that even Kibito seems unaware Gohan could transform --- why is Kibito saying "see I told you" when Gohan didn't pull the Z sword in base when he saw Gohan had access to transformations that would make him worlds stronger? Kinds gives the impression Toriyama reseted, in a way, the way Shin and Kibito perceived the Saiyans at the Budokai... And that the once way above Piccolo Shin was reseted... Or Shin was just fearing too much and being extraordinarily cautious.
 

Goku9001

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@FeatsofPower

I agree. It's definitely tough making it all work. It essentially means you have to reduce the gap between Kaioshin and Piccolo and the gap between Piccolo and Android 18. The gap between Android 18 and Kaioshin would ultimately need to be considerably less than the gap between Teen Gohan and CG Vegeta.
 

FeatsofPower

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@FeatsofPower

I agree. It's definitely tough making it all work. It essentially means you have to reduce the gap between Kaioshin and Piccolo and the gap between Piccolo and Android 18. The gap between Android 18 and Kaioshin would ultimately need to be considerably less than the gap between Teen Gohan and CG Vegeta.
Mmm never thought about it like that well not necessarily you can alter pre and post boys to suit your needs
 

ahill1

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Kaioshin had also sensed SSJ2 Gohan before and was in fear of Yakon.
 

ahill1

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He was in a state of panic and wasn’t thinking about Gohans immense power as stated later
The same can be said about assessing Yakon's power through his speed though. The truth is that Shin shat bricks at base Vegeta and wasn't that taken back by SSJ2 Gohan. Maybe, in universe, it shows his extreme fear was clouding how he'd react naturally.
 

VampireWicked

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From Namek to Battle of the Gods Base Saiyans still weaker than either 50% or 100% Frieza
 

FeatsofPower

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The same can be said about assessing Yakon's power through his speed though.
It can't be. If you are witnessing someone moving 1/10th your speed, it is impossible to be afraid of them. Think about any time that's ever happened where a vastly faster fighter was terrified of a vastly slower fighter when watching them. It doesn't happen.

The truth is that Shin shat bricks at base Vegeta and wasn't that taken back by SSJ2 Gohan.
Shin was not remembering the power of Ssj2 Gohan at the time of witnessing Base Vegeta. So it might as well not have even happened, later, he doesn't seem to recall the way his ki felt, but only that it was hard to contain him. Furthering the idea that Shin's perception of the Budokai is even cloudier than we thought.

No such evidence pertains to Badibi's ship.

Dabura, Badibi, and Kaioshin all think that Pui Pui > Kaioshin. This is never refuted.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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The boys were fighting one on one and were being pressed.

images


@SSJ2 Piccolo said Goku was just being nice and he admitted it.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Mind you, telling how strong someone is by watching is a rare ability. Trunks and 17 thought Vegeta was a threat for 18 just by watching them fight. And being in distress affects your abilities (Kuririn forgets to sense Ki multiple times on Namek).

If Shin was so stressed he forgot SSJ2 Gohan, what else could he have forgotten? That the Saiyans can transform?

Kaioshin’s reaction to Babidi’s goons isn’t a big deal. He recognizes Yakon, but is barely surprised. Evil Vegeta make some good points that Pui Pui is fodder a while ago.
 

ahill1

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It can't be. If you are witnessing someone moving 1/10th your speed, it is impossible to be afraid of them. Think about any time that's ever happened where a vastly faster fighter was terrified of a vastly slower fighter when watching them. It doesn't happen.


Shin was not remembering the power of Ssj2 Gohan at the time of witnessing Base Vegeta. So it might as well not have even happened, later, he doesn't seem to recall the way his ki felt, but only that it was hard to contain him. Furthering the idea that Shin's perception of the Budokai is even cloudier than we thought.

No such evidence pertains to Badibi's ship.

Dabura, Badibi, and Kaioshin all think that Pui Pui > Kaioshin. This is never refuted.
The fact is that Shin wasn't terrified of SSJ2 Gohan. He was terrified of base Vegeta. So either he was more easily terrified in the ship because he was overall afraid and not being rational or they took a 180 in the way Shin was supposed to be perceived. If while looking impressed but not in shock by ssj2 while being terrified at base Vegeta happened, then I can see him being impressed with Yakon and taking a cautious approach despite being way stronger. One way or another, he was overreacting in the ship.
 

FeatsofPower

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@GreatSaiyaman123

Fair enough, you aren't suggesting the boys are superior to the Cell Jrs though, right?

No, it's not a rare ability. Fighters have always been able to know how strong other opponents are just by watching them. We've had countless reactions of things like, "What speed!" Fighters can tell how fast someone is in relation to themselves and make judgments on their power based on that. You and I can do that right now. You can instantly tell if someone is dramatically faster than you just by watching their movements. There's no reason for Dragonball to work any differently.

Pui Pui can't be fodder. Someone who is capable of easily handling Pui Pui requires Yakon to deal with. Badibi doesn't have anyone on the ship that can easily smoke Pui Pui, which should be telling. Badidi collects only the strongest warriors in the universe, so the idea that all of these warriors are piss weak seems silly. Remember, Pui Pui represents the entirety of Badibi's forces.

@ahill1

Even more reason to suggest Shin didn't accurately sense Gohan from the getgo, which has evidence considering he brings up how hard it was to contain Gohan and not his ki power. He never saw how fast Gohan moved. If he knew how strong Ssj2 Gohan really was, Dabura wouldn't be a threat. It's sloppy writing, but don't let the sloppy writing deter you from the overall message here. Base Saiyans > Kaioshin is grounded in tons of evidence.

Kaioshin is nowhere near as fast as Yakon. There's no way he can be.
 
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