Base Vegeta (Cell Games) vs Piccolo (Cell Games)

[ahill1]

Isn't God a better form that all the others? Not taxing at all?

Yes, but he had no big mastery over that form. Not to the level he had with MSSJ, which was almost a base like state to him.

 

[ahill1]

Isn't God a better form that all the others? Not taxing at all?

Yes, but he had no big mastery over that form. Not to the level he had with MSSJ, which was almost a

Dude, Vegeta says he will win the tournament in Base with Android 18 right next to him and then his son holds his own against her wearing a freaking costume. And then Base Gotenks vs Base Vegetto is an insane blowout. Read the room brah.

Ok, Vegeta > 18, never said otherwise

 

[Goku9001]

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Personally, I think you're making your own assumptions to suit your narrative.

Goku blatantly agreed to not using Super Saiyan at all staight-up. Arguing that he was going to use Super Saiyan in bursts is your own subtext. It's flat-out clear that they were never going to use Super Saiyan in any capacity. No one is going to read the manga assuming that they were going to use Super Saiyan in bursts when they clarified that Super Saiyan was out of the picture. You only arrived at that conclusion when you continued to question the narrative that was presented to you.

 

[ahill1]

@Goku9001

I'm not making my own narrative. If I am, I am making it as much as you when saying the Cell Juniors were holding back on Piccolo. You say what I'm arguing for is a stretch, but it's still a possibility... No more at all, imo, of a stretch than you assuming the Cell Juniors gave special treatment for Piccolo and him alone

It was clear that they'd fight in base to avoid unnecessary attraction. Firing it in a burst doesn't hurt the rule, because the rule, again, is not to give the others more chance... The rule is there to protect their own identity. If they can protect their own identity like I proposed, which is plausible because it wouldn't be a break of rules so long as they weren't seen by others as SSJ, then that's totally fine. It's a scenario that coexists with the fact Piccolo wasn't fodder to the Cell Junior, a feat which you insert your own subtext by them giving special treatment for him and him only. They didn't give special treatment for anyone. The Earthlings? They didn't, because their intention wasn't to kill them, was to make them suffer. The three whom they couldn't make suffer easily and add to Gohan's weight were shown there standing without significant injuries. We saw how warm up Perfect Cell could fell Vegeta in just 3 blows, and the Juniors are above that Cell. Piccolo wasn't felled like that, when the fight drew on for a while. Trunks reacted in shock when Goku told what Piccolo suspected as totally the case -- Piccolo was useless -- whose reaction wouldn't make sense if the answer -- Piccolo being useless -- was obvious.

I see the non-SSJ rule way easier to re-interpret, both already noticed by me, Gohan knowing Piccolo's characters and intentions, that he would just not KO him when Piccolo knows Gohan handicapped himself for a reason and that Gohan could just kick his ass otherwise... The possibility of Vegeta picking his target before any altercation with Piccolo and eliminating the tournament meaning for him --- which happened... And the possibility of them using it in a small boost like Goku did vs Trunks quick enough or Vegeta did in his sparring vs Goku using Blue quick enough. The possibility exists. There're ways to explain it, which to me personally works way better than re-writing the CGs implications. Not to mention that you'd need to ignore the kids being close to Gohan's implications, as kid Trunks wasn't above (or at least THAT above) 18 in base, which puts a cap on base Gohan's own power... Which would also lead to assume Gohan was holding back entirely vs Goten and going easy (whereas we have seen others kicking the sparring partners ass earlier in trainings or just going easy on them) or would be forced to assume the base - SSJ ratio is way smaller to the adults.

I see your side, I'm not saying you guys are devoid of implications and totally making things up for this, I know there's evidence. I just find evidences for base < Piccolo more concrete and harder to handwave. But interpretations vary, I'm not trying to impose it as a rule on anyone, I said you guys are crazy pages ago more jokingly.

But yeah, I'm comfortable with placing the kids at 18's level, Gohan at 17's level and base Goku at 16's level, with base Vegeta in-between... With Piccolo as strong as CGs SSJ Vegeta (in the Boo saga) and Kaioshin at MSSJ CGs Goku's level or so. There will be roles and strangeness whatever position one takes.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It was so blatant we didn’t even see it on screen.

 

[Goku9001]

@ahill1 That's fine but I still think you're coping. There is literally absolutely no reason to assume that they would go Super Saiyan when they agreed not to. This is just a roundabout way of handwaving specific implications presented to the reader. You should take them as they are just as you would take Cell's statement of "Vegeta and Trunks are holding their own" as it is.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, Goku going SSJG there was a jerk move. How different is that from breaking his word on the no-SSJ rule?

And if we're talking about Super, Vegeta breaks the no-SSJB rule when they spar in chapter 5.

 

[Goku9001]

@ahill1

It's honestly strange that you disregard the implications behind RoF Gohan > Piccolo because it came from Super to handwave the various implications that may suggest that the Base Saiyans were stronger than Piccolo. And then, suggest that the Saiyans could break the no-SSJ rule based on using transformations in bursts as they did in Super. As @GreatSaiyaman123 said, Beerus does suggest that what Goku did was cheeky so it's not as though it was a fair move anyways.

@GreatSaiyaman123

My counterargument to that was that Whis clearly states that Vegeta's heart was wavering so he got carried away. Vegeta was calm and collected when he deduced that he would win the tournament with the rule intact.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Of course he's calm and collected when talking. Talking is much easier than actually fighting.

I'm kinda torn right now man. The Saiyans don't even care much about winning the tournament. Shin is plain mental inside the ship (He remembers SSJ2 Gohan the same page Yakon walks in) and Babidi is dumb. It's a bunch of half-assed implications strung together.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I am making it as much as you when saying the Cell Juniors were holding back on Piccolo.

No, we have evidence to suggest this is the case. You have no evidence for your case.

Firing it in a burst doesn't hurt the rule, because the rule, again, is not to give the others more chance...

It's never suggested to be the plan to defeat almighty Piccolo lol Where is the evidence he is a threat? He's not, he's absolute trash.

To be fair, Goku going SSJG there was a jerk move. How different is that from breaking his word on the no-SSJ rule?

And if we're talking about Super, Vegeta breaks the no-SSJB rule when they spar in chapter 5.

Because there were reasons to do so. They had no reason to do so in 25th Budokai.

The Saiyans don't even care much about winning the tournament.

Gohan is allowed to fight because Mom wants the moola. Goku is Goku. Vegeta is Vegeta. Lol.

Shin is plain mental inside the ship (He remembers SSJ2 Gohan the same page Yakon walks in)

He doesn't remember his power, only that it's difficult to hold him back. Shin makes sense when you take the statements at face value.

Babidi is dumb.

He's not that dumb, the Saiyans are just beasts. That's the narrative. He enslaved Dabura, he's pretty smart my guy.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Because there were reasons to do so. They had no reason to do so in 25th Budokai.

Do you even now what fight I'm talking about? Vegeta transformed just to beat and spite Goku... That's also a reason in the 25th Budokai lol.

Gohan is allowed to fight because Mom wants the moola. Goku is Goku. Vegeta is Vegeta. Lol.

Gohan favors his identity over the cash, Goku and Vegeta just wanna beat each other up.

He doesn't remember his power, only that it's difficult to hold him back. Shin makes sense when you take the statements at face value.

You don't even believe that.

He's not that dumb, the Saiyans are just beasts. That's the narrative. He enslaved Dabura, he's pretty smart my guy.

I remember you told me the other day he should be stronger than Piccolo. Judging by how he's taken out, he's pretty stupid. Also doesn't even now how much energy he needs to revive Boo!

 

[FeatsofPower]

You don't even believe that.

It's literally Shin's statement. Once again, I did not write it. AT boxed himself in, this is his way out, you have to accept it.

I remember you told me the other day he should be stronger than Piccolo. Judging by how he's taken out, he's pretty stupid. Also doesn't even now how much energy he needs to revive Boo!

He has to be stronger than Piccolo. Or the complete narrative tanks. Everyone is stronger than Piccolo at this point except the Base Boys.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

He has to be stronger than Piccolo.

But he isn't. That's just a fact you can't deny.

I think it makes more sense if Babidi is just wrong about himself. He knows how strong Kaioshin is, his goons seem to be pretty strong too since Kaioshin fears them, but Babidi might have given his own powers a little bit too much credit.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But he isn't. That's just a fact you can't deny.

He has to be. The entire plot makes no sense. Pui Pui is one of the strongest fighters Badibi has. Kaioshin has no need for the Saiyans if Pui Pui and Badibi's men are so weak. Badibi has no need for fighters so weak they can't help against Kaioshin, who is his eternal enemy and the one he prepares against.

Badibi's entire plan is dedicated to stopping Kaioshin, that's why he evades him in secret. Badibi is not a threat if he can't threaten Kaioshin. Yakon and Dabura are tremendous surprises. Pui Pui and the other guys Badibi has should all be threats to Kaioshin.

Kaioshin was concerned about Pui Pui, and never changes his mind on what a threat Pui Pui was.

I think it makes more sense if Babidi is just wrong about himself. He knows how strong Kaioshin is, his goons seem to be pretty strong too since Kaioshin fears them, but Babidi might have given his own powers a little bit too much credit.

Pui Pui is expected to annihilate people in front of Kaioshin, I don't know how much more clear this can be.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why are you so obsessed with Pui Pui? I'm just talking about Babidi man.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Why are you so obsessed with Pui Pui? I'm just talking about Babidi man.

Because Pui Pui is not much different than Badibi's other warriors. Badibi only collects the strongest warriors in the universe, between this dimension and the demon dimension.

Badibi collects strong fighters with the intent of defeating Kaioshin, while his overall plan is to resurrect Majin Buu.

Badibi is such a threat himself because of his powerful magic and his ability to turn powerful foes into his slave.

This is the narrative of the character of Badibi. This is why Kaioshin reveres him as such a threat.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Because Pui Pui is not much different than Badibi's other warriors. Badibi only collects the strongest warriors in the universe, between this dimension and the demon dimension.

Badibi collects strong fighters with the intent of defeating Kaioshin, while his overall plan is to resurrect Majin Buu.

Badibi is such a threat himself because of his powerful magic and his ability to turn powerful foes into his slave.

This is the narrative of the character of Badibi. This is why Kaioshin reveres him as such a threat.

But in a 1v1 fight Babidi is worthless, right? If he can't possess his opponent... He even mentions having Dabra on his side later, like he's insecure about his odds taking on Shin alone.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But in a 1v1 fight Babidi is worthless, right? If he can't possess his opponent... He even mentions having Dabra on his side later, like he's insecure about his odds taking on Shin alone.

Badibi has no physical strength. But he has powerful magic. Shin is cautious about Badibi and Badibi is cautious of Shin. Shin never seems too confident in taking Badibi down, but intends to pin him down and manage something.

We don't really know what Badibi is capable of with his magic, the anime at least tried to give us a little something with Piccolo, but the manga has remained silent, even in the continuation.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

Piccolo slaps the taste outta Vegeta's mouth.