Beerus saying base Goku can't defeat Freeza

[ahill1]

Do you take that as an indicator of the base Saiyajins being still below Freeza in the Boo saga, or write that off due to the implications of the Boo saga? Or maybe you think the scene hasn't much relevance since Beerus was 'examining' Goku's body instead of reading his chi?

 

[Six Trails]

I just ignore it (along with all new material). I think that's more practical than trying to misconstrue the scene to mean something other than what's realistically intended.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Beerus had already seen the physical difference between Goku's base state and the SSJ form he saw in Whis' crystal ball, not to mention the manga makes the statement even worthless with Beerus stating he could see how Goku defeated Freeza only after Galu started using SS2. No need to ignore all the evidence for Base Saiyans >>> Freeza in the Boo Arc just for this one statement when it can be interpreted in several ways.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Honestly, it just sounds like Beerus was set on seeing Super Saiyan up close. Goku had just tried to hide from Beerus, so I see no reason why Goku needs to be standing around at full-power. Beerus isn't infallible.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Well given that Base Saiyans are featless after Freeza arc so yeah.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Well given that Base Saiyans are featless after Freeza arc so yeah.

Future Trunks knocking Future Cell away with a Kiai and being complemented on his strength.
Trunks fighting evenly with #18 in a restrictive costume.
Goku fighting evenly with someone who Shin seemed genuinely scared of to the point he recommended ganging up on Yakon.

Yeah, no worthwhile feats here.

 

[Flame]

Beerus seems to be examining Goku's body and not examining his ki. Is Goku suppressed? Yes. Does that mean he's automatically stronger than Frieza? No. The line seemed to be there for the reason of egging Goku on to transform. But still, it could've been worded differently. Do I think base saiyans>Frieza? No. But I don't think that anything in DBS should be used as definite proof. The story has too many contradictions and inconsistencies. Using a statement from Super to try and make a point from DBZ isn't a good idea imo. Whether Beerus has the statement or not, makes no difference to me. Because I believe Frieza>base saiyans regardless.

 

[Flame]

Well given that Base Saiyans are featless after Freeza arc so yeah.

Future Trunks knocking Future Cell away with a Kiai and being complemented on his strength.
Trunks fighting evenly with #18 in a restrictive costume.
Goku fighting evenly with someone who Shin seemed genuinely scared of to the point he recommended ganging up on Yakon.

Yeah, no worthwhile feats here.

An opponent Future Trunks still had to transform against. The same had to be done against 17 and 18 as well.
Because 18 was going all out? She didn't know who was underneath the costume right away. His movements were also unpredictable seeing as how there were two of them in the costume.
Yet the Supreme Kai doesn't even seem to make it sound like he was surpassed until after Goku transformed.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

An opponent Future Trunks still had to transform against. The same had to be done against 17 and 18 as well.

Cell still had data on Trunks based on prior battles with the twins, which would still make Base Trunks at that point stronger than the SSJ version who killed Freeza and Cold at minimum, if not above his pre-Rosat self.

Because 18 was going all out? She didn't know who was underneath the costume right away. His movements were also unpredictable seeing as how there were two of them in the costume.

If that were the case, it wouldn't take her long to determine their limits and KO them with whatever level of power was necessary to do so, just like how she did when analysing what Vegeta's limit was. There's no reason for her to extend the fight needlessly when money was her only objective. The Daizenshuu also supports Base Trunks ~ #18.

Yet the Supreme Kai doesn't even seem to make it sound like he was surpassed until after Goku transformed.

So determining immediately that their only option was to gang up on Yakon doesn't sound like him being surpassed at all? If Shin's Ki can't be taken to revive Boo, there'd be no reason for him not to jump in and kill Yakon if he was indeed superior and believed Goku couldn't handle it alone.

 

[Void]

What Beerus says contradicts what we're shown in the Boo arc, but that doesn't mean it can be written off because we don't like it. It's there, and Goku examines Vegeta in the same fashion when he arrives on Beerus planet to determine Vegeta is possibly stronger than him. We don't just write that off either. It's silly, but it's there for the anime.

 

[Six Trails]

I don’t mind applying it to Super. I just keep the original material and Super separate.

 

[Kyo]

Just call it a plot hole for all I care

 

[ahill1]

Honestly, it just sounds like Beerus was set on seeing Super Saiyan up close. Goku had just tried to hide from Beerus, so I see no reason why Goku needs to be standing around at full-power. Beerus isn't infallible.

Goku could very well have been suppressed, but wouldn't Beerus' statement be contradicted then? Nobody there contradicted Beerus assessment on the matter.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Because it doesn't matter to them.

 

[ahill1]

Because it doesn't matter to them.

Well, but would AT just spread misinformation through Beerus then? Generally when a matter is wrongly told us, it's subsequently corrected as a means for wrong information not to be spread out... so I think it's somewhat doubtful he'd overcomplicate things by having Beerus asserting an affirmation such as "Freeza > base Goku" and have no one correcting him if he didn't intend us to think base < Freeza. The scene kind of lose all of its value imo.

Besides, Goku is kind of a manchild, specially so in Super, so I could see him correcting Beerus if his base were already strong enough to defeat Freeza. Although he was told to be respectful, something like "Sorry Lord Beerus, but the truth is that even this form is already enough to deal with Freeza... this foe is old news" could fit in a correction towards Beerus assessment in which Goku would be respectful. Heck, iirc Kaio does even conform to Beerus' assessment, swinging his head positively, so it's rather doubtful we'd have a scene like this to mean something other than Freeza > base Goku.

 

[Pyro]

Honestly, it just sounds like Beerus was set on seeing Super Saiyan up close. Goku had just tried to hide from Beerus, so I see no reason why Goku needs to be standing around at full-power. Beerus isn't infallible.

Goku could very well have been suppressed, but wouldn't Beerus' statement be contradicted then? Nobody there contradicted Beerus assessment on the matter.

The contradiction wouldn't need to be outright if the circumstances aren't particular, ya dig?

 

[ahill1]

Honestly, it just sounds like Beerus was set on seeing Super Saiyan up close. Goku had just tried to hide from Beerus, so I see no reason why Goku needs to be standing around at full-power. Beerus isn't infallible.

Goku could very well have been suppressed, but wouldn't Beerus' statement be contradicted then? Nobody there contradicted Beerus assessment on the matter.

The contradiction wouldn't need to be outright if the circumstances aren't particular, ya dig?

I didn't get it, could you try to explain it in some other way?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Gohan was stated to be the most powerful of the Earth warriors by Tagoma. This is before it's known he can even turn Super Saiyan.

Gohan could no longer turn Ultimate, could barely maintain Super Saiyan, and had a weak body that needed to be trained again. Yet despite all of that, he was still sparring with Piccolo in Base...and shown to be on par with him.

So honestly, Beerus is just wrong. Goku never contradicted him, but everything prior to that moment and after show the Base Saiyans to be above Freeza. If a weaker Base Gohan could be in Piccolo's league, Goku sure as hell isn't going to be below it. Then again, Freeza did say he should be able to acquire a Battle Power of 1.3 million if he trained hard for 4 months

 

[ahill1]

Gohan was stated to be the most powerful of the Earth warriors by Tagoma. This is before it's known he can even turn Super Saiyan.

Gohan could no longer turn Ultimate, could barely maintain Super Saiyan, and had a weak body that needed to be trained again. Yet despite all of that, he was still sparring with Piccolo in Base...and shown to be on par with him.

So honestly, Beerus is just wrong. Goku never contradicted him, but everything prior to that moment and after show the Base Saiyans to be above Freeza. If a weaker Base Gohan could be in Piccolo's league, Goku sure as hell isn't going to be below it.

Since Ultimate is a form that resembles base, with the difference being Gohan's aesthetics like the shape of his eyes and some more mature features, it's possible Gohan retained part of his Ultimate power on his base form, hence why he could tangle with Piccolo in base. Besides, that was in Super, to which Akira Toriyama admitted that all the ideas weren't exactly his, so that could very well have been Toei's influence, for all we know. That part isn't depicted on the FnF movie iirc.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The problem here is Super treats Ultimate as a transformation. We see Gohan regain the transformation, which Piccolo referred to as the power he used to fight Boo. According to Gohan, he lost the power-up altogether by the ROF saga. If we apply that logic, then regular ol Base Gohan is > or = to Piccolo. Goku would naturally be above that.

If you're just going by the movies, which ends at ROF, you could very well go along with Freeza>Base Goku.

Beerus: "...It doesn't appear to me like you could defeat him as you are, but I understand you transform and power up into what's called a Super Saiyajin."

Super: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”

He walked around Goku and inspected him before saying he doesn't "appear" or "look like" he can take Freeza. I honestly don't think it's as much of an in-depth statement on Goku's capabilities like others do. Goku almost never walks around at full-power, and Beerus statement seems more like he's judging Goku's appearance than actual Chi-sensing.