Beerus saying base Goku can't defeat Freeza

[Evil Vegeta]

ahill, thanks for making the topic and I appreciate the quick debate. I haven't brainstormed in awhile. If I'm being perfectly honest, I've always took Beerus Battle of Gods' statement as fact despite the amount of stuff that I believe goes against it. It was just the more simple alternative. I also assumed Battle of Gods ignored the previous stuff. Kinda like Freeza's 1.3 million statement and the Shisami=Zarbon and Dodoria. With the Super Anime, I feel like there's more that makes the line debatable.

When it comes to Goku and Gohan in Battle of Gods, I know AT stated he choose the period because everyone was at their highest level. There's also Gohan's bio that says he wields a power "greater than a Pure Saiyan", but that's about it.

 

[Void]

Doesn't Gohan do even worse than non rage Vegeta in the movie?

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, but so does Goku... yet Vegeta is only noted to surpass Goku upon getting the rage boost. Vegeta was the one who lasted longer for whatever reason.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't think there's concret evidence for Goku > Gohan in the BoG movie. Beerus disposed of them all quickly, with Vegeta being the one who lasted longer. Since there's no way Vegeta SSJ2 is > Goku SSJ3, Vegeta's feat compared to Gotenks and Gohan shouldn't matter too much.

There's also Vegeta stating that he didn't know that Beerus was that strong upon this latter knocking out Gohan and Gotenks, whereas he already knew Beerus had the power to swiftly defeat Goku, which could point out to Gohan and Gotenks being > Goku.

Kame-Sen'nin compared Vegeta to Goku, saying that Vegeta surpassed even Goku, but that might be due to their rivalry. He knows Vegeta has been striving to surpass Goku, so mentioning Goku in that instance makes more sense than mentioning Gotenks and Gohan, to whom Vegeta hadn't a history with. They were also happy when Goku got to the battlefield, but that might have to do with Goku's historic of solving things one way or another. Bulma stated that Goku is someone who makes you feel confident in hopeless situations, and they already knew Goku had no chance against Beerus (Kame-Sen'nin already knew Goku was surpassed by Vegeta), so them being happy Goku got there ought to mean something other than his strength.

All in all, there isn't anything solidly indicating Goku surpassed Gotenks and Gohan in the Battle of Gods movie, with the evidences stemming mostly from implications that can be explained in other ways.

Nah, Gohan is definitely stronger than Goku. Like EV said, Gohan's bio for the movie says he yields power that surpasses that of a Pure Saiyan. They aren't far apart, though.

Vegeta thought nobody could defeat Beerus after hearing Goku got two shoted, implying nobody could two shot Gohan. Vegeta was never shown to be shocked with Gotenks or Gohan's defeat. After Gohan gets defeated he just jumps in and tries to fight, and when Gotenks is about to fight Beerus he tells him Beerus is out of his league. From the moment he discovered Goku was two shoted Vegeta knew Beerus going mad would the be end for them.

In the anime Goku is even stronger with Vegeta calling Goku #1 on a statement that's clearly about power (And placing himself as #2, thus making his above Gohan) and Beerus says nobody was as amusing as Goku was.

 

[Void]

I strongly disagree with Gohan being stronger than Goku or Vegeta in BoG.

 

[ahill1]

Nah, Gohan is definitely stronger than Goku. Like EV said, Gohan's bio for the movie says he yields power that surpasses that of a Pure Saiyan. They aren't far apart, though.

That's what I said, though. I said that there's no definitive proof for Goku to have grown past Gohan by the BoG movie.

Vegeta thought nobody could defeat Beerus after hearing Goku got two shoted, implying nobody could two shot Gohan

I'd have to rewatch that part of the movie, but iirc Vegeta got nervous with the news of Goku being two shotted by Beerus, which is a common thing to be worried about, as an enemy who two shotted Goku might be too much for Gohan and Gotenks to deal with. Beerus' strength was still something vague, so that's a reason to be concerned about.

Alternatively, it could just mean that Gohan in the BoG isn't stronger than Goku to a point he could two shot him. That doesn't need to imply a rather thin gap between them though, as Freeza still couldn't just one shot Goku even when utilizing 50% of his powers.

In the anime Goku is even stronger with Vegeta calling Goku #1 on a statement that's clearly about power (And placing himself as #2, thus making his above Gohan) and Beerus says nobody was as amusing as Goku was.

I agree that this line points to Goku being stronger, but considering that was an anime-exclusive line and that such isn't present in the manga, it can be a TOEI influenced line and not related to Toriyama.

 

[Papasmurf]

Doesn't Gohan do even worse than non rage Vegeta in the movie?

Yeah, but he was originally animated as a Super Saiyan before they were informed of their error on Twitter and decided to recolor his hair and aura.