ahill1 said:
Well, like I said, believing Goku's 60k based on him taking out the three Ginyus is too vague of a thing to come by merely by the feat alone. The feat of taking out them encompass a wide range of battle power, that could be accomplished by someone from 60k to 200k+. I think Ginyu, by whatever method, could have a grasp on Goku's battle power by starring at him. 60k+ was the strongest power Goku could access without performing a power up, so I think Ginyu had just a solid grasp on the power that Goku had at the "surface". When he fought Goku a little, he could have a solid estimation on Goku's true power, barring the Kaioken, which was a technique he couldn't predict. 85k almost perfectly matches Goku's base power.
Can't this same logic apply to Beerus? I know he's a deity, but he's not infallible. This is shown a number of times throughout Super when it comes to him assessing powers. Goku's surface level as he stood around could be less than whatever level Beerus had in mind from Freeza 39 yrs ago. He already saw an image of Super Saiyan Goku stomping Freeza, so it stands to reason that his Base form wouldn't look nearly as impressive. On a surface level, Kaioshin admitted inferiority to Goku, but he still needed to see how strong he was to know his capabilities.
Freeza, who can't sense chi, could also have a solid grasp on Goku's capability, since he knew just half of his power was enough to turn Goku into dust. So Beerus examining Goku's body could be his way of figuring out Goku's base true abilites without the need to fight him or anything. Since he wasn't corrected, his statement should still stand.
The statement can stand based on how you take entire scene in question. Beerus says he doesn't think Base Goku can beat Freeza. Freeza>Base Goku. Beerus then seems to note Goku defeated Freeza by barely changing in power. After Goku attacks him for awhile, Beerus eventually understood how Super Saiyan Goku was able to defeat Freeza. It's almost as if Beerus is holding Freeza to a much higher standard above all else.
I think if Beerus is able to reach an accurate conclusion of Freeza>Base Goku based on Goku doing nothing, then the same should be clear the moment Goku transformed. Instead, Beerus had to be further convinced on how Goku was able to defeat Freeza with a power that should be far above Freeza by this point.
Beerus doesn't appear to be sensing Goku's strength, but that in no way means he can't have an accurate assessment on his strength. Like I said, he touching Goku's body could have been his way to figure out Goku's latent power, bar SSJ, the same way Ginyu could have an accurate grasp on base Goku's power upon fighting him a little. The statement kinda loses its meaning as well if it wasn't intended to mean Freeza > base Goku. Why even put the statement there if Beerus was wrong? It'd be useless.
Well, AT has Freeza saying he'd reach a Battle Power of 1.3 million if he trained hard for 4 months. Shisami is stated to be on par with Zarbon and Dodoria at their peak. Piccolo not only was having trouble fighting Shisami, but Gohan had to become a Super Saiyan to one-shot him. So the theory that power levels were nerfed across the board actually has some basis.
Btw, this is exactly how I feel about Dabra=Cell. The contradiction would be Gohan fighting as a Super Saiyan, but it still makes the comparison a pretty useless one in general because it isn't close to being accurate.
How does that contradict Beerus saying base Goku is < Freeza?
Not necessarily a contradiction. It just shows that Goku believes in his Base power a lot more than Beerus does if he's willing to fight him in a form that's supposedly inferior to Freeza.
I can see where you are coming from here, but I think Goku could correct Beerus without sounding kinda rude. Even if he were afraid to sound rude by correcting him, if Beerus assessment were wrong, I think Akira Toriyama would have made a case to correct it to us in a way Beerus wouldn't know, like having one of the characters imagining it or speaking to themselves. Similarly, we have Yamcha correcting the tibit "Kuririn is the strongest in the World" speaking to himself that such statement was only valid in regards to earthlings, so it's doubtful Akira Toriyama would have left that statement uncontradicted (or even make that in the first place) were it incorrect.
If you adhere to Battle of Gods, then there's no challenge to the statement.
If you adhere to Super, the sequence itself puts the statement into question. The following saga shows us that Gohan is stronger or equal to Piccolo even though he lost the ability to become Ultimate altogether.
The Manga's scene is similar to the Anime, but the Base Goku line is omitted.
Yes, such is left vague (although I vaguely remember Kaio nodding his head positively to Beerus), but considering it's left vague, Kaio could just of being agreeing with Beerus' entire comment, that is, Goku can't defeat Beerus while in base but can power up by turning into a SSJ. But I won't get into that, if you think this is just in regards to Goku's ability to gain power through the transformation, I will leave that be, but the lack of a contradiction towards Beerus' assessment remains, whether they thought doing so would be rude or not.
Yes, neither challenged Beerus. If you take the statement as is, then Freeza>Base Goku is the outcome.
Hmm, that's interesting, but considering Beerus also stated that Goku got a slight upgrade by turning into a SSJ, maybe he just didn't asseess SSJ's power accurately until testing it by himself? I don't see SSJ as a "slight" upgrade, even if Beerus is so far above such realm that it isn't even funny.
It seems that way. This is exactly why I don't (by Super's standard, at least) think he assessed Base Goku accurately. It took Goku using all of his power in Super Saiyan for Beerus to understand how Freeza was defeated. Based on the information we know, Super Saiyan Goku would destroy someone like Kaioshin, let alone Freeza by this point. The difference between them should be obvious, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Beerus just didn't seem all that impressed with Goku until he turned Super Saiyan 3. That or he held Freeza in pretty high regard in general. Probably a combination of both.
Ok, that's fine. That was the question I wished to know. I think it can take precedence over what was previously implied since they were merely implications, not a direct comparison between Freeza and base Goku, like we have here. In face of a not so direct comparison between Freeza and the base Saiyajins, I can see why someone woud prefer to expain the Boo saga implications in other ways. It's fine if you don't though, I myself am not even sure which side to strongly adhere.
While they weren't as direct as Beerus' statement, the statement itself still comes off as guesswork. All of the Kaioshin stuff from the Boo saga should still apply. The OVA where Goku is confident in the Base kids taking on beings as strong or stronger than Freeza should still apply. If I look at it from the perspective of either side, it still appears as if Beerus simply has Freeza on a higher pedestal than Goku. Nothing wrong with Freeza>Base Goku, though. I just don't see that statement invalidating everything inferring otherwise.
