Best battle powers ever

[Power Level Guy]

If your answer as to why is the statement itself then that's circular reasoning.

I wouldn't say so. If the character says, "I had eggs this morning." This statement would be true whether we witnessed it or not.

Are you saying that unless we see the character actually eat the eggs, it didn't happen?

Statements and implications are true unless they are shown to be false. That's the assumption we all make for all material we read. Any other approach would be illogical.

 

[ahill1]

Your example isn't comparable at all. The character was saying something that happened with them off screen, we are to accept under normal circumstances, of course. Here, we don't have information of Vegeta's awareness occurring off screen, only that he knew 17 witnessed a Trunks. The information of 17 being aware inside of Cell isn't hinted to have happened off screen, because there was nothing pointing at that. You assume it must have happened off screen. Your example would be comparable if Vegeta had said he was informed by Goku that 17 can see things while inside Cell. Therein, an off screen information (Vegeta's awareness) would've been made clear to the readers and there wouldn't need to be any discussion in the first place. However, it didn't happen, there was no hint of any statement from Vegeta or anyone that the prince was fed such information off screen, which you keep overlooking and that's why your analogies keep being incomplete, your analogies don't weigh at all to what you're proposing here... It remains simply as an speculation. For more that you'd like this to be a concrete power placement statement, which would be cool, you passing it off as a 100% certain thing is only leading to circular reasoning, heavy assumptions and weird rationalizations ("the Cell Juniors were holding back... But they weren't holding back by much... I know the extent they were holding back because... Reasons"). Sorry P, but you see many concrete power statements where there's none.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Your example isn't comparable at all. The character was saying something that happened with them off screen, we are to accept under normal circumstances, of course.

What is abnormal about this circumstance? Characters give estimates on people's fighting abilities all of the time.

Here, we don't have information of Vegeta's awareness occurring off screen, only that he knew 17 witnessed a Trunks.

Ok. So you do realize the alternative is far worse then? Kid Trunks either equals Future Trunks in strength from the Androids Saga or the Cell Games Saga. Pick one.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Sorry P, but you see many concrete power statements where there's none.

Name some.

 

[Dagon]

I wouldn't say so. If the character says, "I had eggs this morning." This statement would be true whether we witnessed it or not.

Are you saying that unless we see the character actually eat the eggs, it didn't happen?

Statements and implications are true unless they are shown to be false. That's the assumption we all make for all material we read. Any other approach would be illogical.

I'm not trying to affirm Buu saga kid Trunks = Androids saga SSJ Trunks, I'm just saying Vegeta's quote can be read that way due to lack of confirmation that Vegeta knows about 17 being aware of events while absorbed. So if Vegeta does know that 17 was aware of events and power levels of the Cell Games then it's a plot contrivance.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I'm not trying to affirm Buu saga kid Trunks = Androids saga SSJ Trunks

Well that's what you should logically be doing. If you are going to disqualify CG Trunks, you need to accept Androids Saga Trunks.

I'm just saying Vegeta's quote can be read that way due to lack of confirmation that Vegeta knows about 17 being aware of events while absorbed.

And if you do that, you get Vegeta talking about Androids Saga Trunks.

So if Vegeta does know that 17 was aware of events and power levels of the Cell Games then it's a plot contrivance.

That's fine. I don't care how you come to the conclusion that Kid Trunks = Future Trunks CG, it's the right conclusion.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it’s pretty straightforward guys. When has “He’s as strong as X” not meant exactly what it says?

The page starts with Vegeta saying something like “I heard you’ve been training”. Goku has informed him of the events that transpired at the island.

 

[Dagon]

I think it’s pretty straightforward guys. When has “He’s as strong as X” not meant exactly what it says?

The page starts with Vegeta saying something like “I heard you’ve been training”. Goku has informed him of the events that transpired at the island.

I'm just saying it's one of those weird things like Goku somehow knows 50% Freeza is truly 50% because he blocked the X20 KHH, yet that doesn't really make sense because to know 50% of something you'd have to know what 100% of it was, yet he still wanted to see 100% Freeza to know how he measures up to Freeza.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I'm just saying it's one of those weird things like Goku somehow knows 50% Freeza is truly 50% because he blocked the X20 KHH, yet that doesn't really make sense because to know 50% of something you'd have to know what 100% of it was, yet he still wanted to see 100% Freeza to know how he measures up to Freeza.

Sure, sometimes characters just know things. That's why this idea that if we didn't see it, it didn't happen type of mentality isn't realistic. If a character is portraying to know some kind of knowledge, it's assumed he has said knowledge. He isn't on the stand, he doesn't have to prove anything to us. If the author is walking us down a road, we are supposed to walk down the road. He will correct us if that path is incorrect.

These are the basics of logic and reading comprehension.

This one shouldn't even be that weird at all. Goku gave Vegeta the run down on Android 17. I'm guessing Goku including the information there. This is no mystery lol. GSM brings up a great point. Cell might have even mentioned it in the series as well.

 

[Dagon]

Sure, sometimes characters just know things. That's why this idea that if we didn't see it, it didn't happen type of mentality isn't realistic. If a character is portraying to know some kind of knowledge, it's assumed he has said knowledge. He isn't on the stand, he doesn't have to prove anything to us. If the author is walking us down a road, we are supposed to walk down the road. He will correct us if that path is incorrect.

These are the basics of logic and reading comprehension.

This one shouldn't even be that weird at all. Goku gave Vegeta the run down on Android 17. I'm guessing Goku including the information there. This is no mystery lol. GSM brings up a great point. Cell might have even mentioned it in the series as well.

It's still bad writing. It's like when a character in a murder mystery somehow knows another character got killed on the other side of the locked mansion before anyone congregates to share knowledge. It's kind of a plot hole.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Except this is a throw away line about a minor character’s abilities. True bad writing would be wasting pages just to have Goku tell Vegeta that 17 watched the Cell Games inside Cell.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It's still bad writing. It's like when a character in a murder mystery somehow knows another character got killed on the other side of the locked mansion before anyone congregates to share knowledge. It's kind of a plot hole.

Bro, this is not a murder mystery. My goodness! This is a throwaway power statement. It is a quick and easy one. The only reason is because it hurt some fan's feelings about where they subjectively placed the kids power. That's it. When I think about bad writing in Super, this is the last thing I consider. It's literally no big deal, it's just fan's personal bias. The uproar over the issue is bordering on absurdity at this point. It's honestly shocking to hear some of the counters being thrown against a literal character in the manga. It's so-so strange.

 

[Kyo]

There can certainly be cases in shounen manga in which a character really shouldn't have access to the information needed to make a power statement (hence bad writing), but there are others in which it's reasonable to surmise that they were just told something off-screen. For example, Trunks knows that he can beat Freeza despite having never met him, presumably because Gohan told him he could, even though we're never shown or told this.

 

[Power Level Guy]

For example, Trunks knows that he can beat Freeza despite having never met him, presumably because Gohan told him he could, even though we're never shown or told this.

I've been looking for more and more examples. This is a good one. I'm taken aback for the need to provide analogies for such a case, but I'm sure they rank in the dozens. It's literally happening all the time.

 

[ahill1]

Well yeah, but in this case the evidence for Vegeta being told that off screen would be that the kids defended themselves against the Cell Juniors, hence they can't be as strong as androids saga Trunks, ok... But if each could defend, with each one arm, the strike from more than one Cell Junior, then kid Trunks isn't simply as good as future Trunks CGs, kid Trunks is >> him... And if Vegeta didn't know 17 knew that, his statement would make sense because he doesn't need to go in specifics about how strong his kid is. As far as Vegeta knew, Trunks needed to defend the island against poachers... Just saying he's just as good as someone who easily slayed Freeza would get the point accross just fine. So Vegeta doesn't need to get into specifics into his power statement, just a general way of conveying his boy strength would fly.

 

[Power Level Guy]

But if each could defend, with each one arm, the strike from more than one Cell Junior, then kid Trunks isn't simply as good as future Trunks CGs, kid Trunks is >> him

Which would go against Vegeta's direct quote. So we know that's not the case.

his statement would make sense because he doesn't need to go in specifics about how strong his kid is.

He could have easily said that his kid was even stronger, which would have furthered the point he was trying to make.

As far as Vegeta knew, Trunks needed to defend the island against poachers...

A Base Saiyans power would be sufficient to do such a task. Vegeta is clearly stating Future Trunks = Kid Trunks. It couldn't be any simpler.

So Vegeta doesn't need to get into specifics into his power statement, just a general way of conveying his boy strength would fly.

But he did get into specifics. He didn't say, "My son's strength will be sufficient." He explicitly states Future Trunks = Kid Trunks.

You keep going down this road. Vegeta said something specific, but you are hijacking it and making it seem he was making a simple generalization. This is not the narrative. The narrative is, "your island will be fine, my son is just as strong as my adult son from the Future that you've witnessed."

It's point blank period here. You are desperately trying to twist this argument to suit your previous estimations, which seem to have been wrong. This is bad argumentation and a complete regression of the previous debate standards you used to hold yourself to.

 

[ahill1]

What are yout guys criticisms of my list the way it is now?

Once mastered, SSJ regressed from 50x to 25x (I like to still keep it as above 20x due to Kaioken x20 becoming obsolete)... And having bigger gaps helped that. For fusions, it regressed from 25x to 10x... Basically halving when the story doesn't need that big multipliers no longer.

I also didn't put much stock into post RoSaT base Gotenks... I think the way it was structured, it reads well as SSJ Gotenks being the strength preticted to "maybe" do it vs initial Super Boo, who far surpassed pre RoSaT SSJ Gotenks... While base Gotenks was more like a set up for a gag, hence why you see Piccolo facepalming himself when he sees the initial attack did nothing, rather than saying "is Boo that strong??"... The reactions of them all compliment much better when SSJ Gotenks fought Super Boo.

 

[ahill1]

There, now it's done. Made some final edits and now the list is complete.

 

[SSJ2]

What are yout guys criticisms of my list the way it is now?

1/10

 

[Power Level Guy]

Once mastered, SSJ regressed from 50x to 25x

The promotional material for BoG flat out states Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier. The series expresses Super Saiyan as the same boost for all Saiyans. Whether it be Cabba, Goten, Goku, whoever, they are all implied to get the same boost. There's no reason for it to change.

And having bigger gaps helped that. For fusions, it regressed from 25x to 10x...

No evidence for this.

I also didn't put much stock into post RoSaT base Gotenks... I think the way it was structured, it reads well as SSJ Gotenks being the strength preticted to "maybe" do it vs initial Super Boo, who far surpassed pre RoSaT SSJ Gotenks... While base Gotenks was more like a set up for a gag, hence why you see Piccolo facepalming himself when he sees the initial attack did nothing, rather than saying "is Boo that strong??"... The reactions of them all compliment much better when SSJ Gotenks fought Super Boo.

Yeah, this I agree with. I think it's the most reasonable way to interpret this. I do think EoZ Goku also backs up this logic if he is indeed beyond Gotenks at this point.