Best battle powers ever

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SEG: "Training Ex" section

Room of Spirit and Time
Menu 1: sparring with another Super Saiyan
Stamina: 4
Ki: 10

Menu 2: meditation
Ki: 3

Menu 3: constantly being a Super Saiyan
Power: 8
Speed: 6
Stamina: 7
Ki: 8

Total
Power: 41
Speed: 31
Stamina: 44
Ki: 55

DB Super Exciting Guide: Story - Page 5 • Kanzenshuu

www.kanzenshuu.com

I guess Goku can be a tiny bit stronger. No more than 2x I'd say.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Nah, a 1.6x boost would be enough

Goku SSJ 100
-- post time in rosat 166
-- SSJg2 233
-- SSJg3 500

Android 17 150

Android 16 250

Semi Cell (initially) : 420

How strong is light grenade?

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo : 150
-- weakened : 100
-- Light Grenade : 200

As a note, I have his Makankosappo as a 1.7x multiplier. I'm going down the route the level read by Raditz as 408 and 416 still didn't represent their FP, which is why Vegeta stated the level Nappa gauged on Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn meant nothing.

So, like:

Piccolo (weighted) : 322
-- non weights : 408
-- FP : 780
-- Makankosappo: 1,330

Goku's KMHMH would be a 1.2x amp more or less

So the amp went from 1.7x to 2x now with Piccolo's Bakuritsumaha

And that's if I cared to incorporate amplifications into power levels, which I gauge generally as mostly inconsistent things, as Goku defended himself from Piccolo's strongest attack in the 23rd Budokai while bracing himself and Goku's Super KMHMH only made Piccolo angry.

If Goku's KMHMH was 1.2x then, it can be 1.5x in the Cell saga.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo : 150
-- weakened : 100
-- Light Grenade : 200

As a note, I have his Makankosappo as a 1.7x multiplier. I'm going down the route the level read by Raditz as 408 and 416 still didn't represent their FP, which is why Vegeta stated the level Nappa gauged on Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn meant nothing.

So, like:

Piccolo (weighted) : 322
-- non weights : 408
-- FP : 780
-- Makankosappo: 1,330

Goku's KMHMH would be a 1.2x amp more or less

So the amp went from 1.7x to 2x now with Piccolo's Bakuritsumaha

And that's if I cared to incorporate amplifications into power levels, which I gauge generally as mostly inconsistent things, as Goku defended himself from Piccolo's strongest attack in the 23rd Budokai while bracing himself and Goku's Super KMHMH only made Piccolo angry.

If Goku's KMHMH was 1.2x then, it can be 1.5x in the Cell saga.

Piccolo was never noted to have lost power was he?

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo was never noted to have lost power was he?

He struggled to get up after having been hit by Cell.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku and Piccolo going higher than 408 and 416 is interesting, but I don’t think I can buy it. Sounds too convenient that Raditz never picked up higher levels in his scouter.

Piccolo was pretty roughed up, but the correlation between injury, fatigue and powe loss is very foggy.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, may be stretching a little, but works better in giving them more of a gap over the other Z warriors, who were trash, fitting Kami and Popo comfortably below them (actually, Kami was wayyy below them), and also has backing when we see the immense difference there was between weighted Goku and non-weighted Goku at the 23rd Budokai, with weight Goku being ~ Tenshinhan... And the jump in power being not well represented there. And since Veegta told Nappa straight away the readings didn't mean anything, not only due to amp chi blasts, as can be seen when they fought the Saibaimen, and Goku and Piccolo had already been through that level of chi mastery... Then I think it has at least a solid backing. Raditz at least stated their defenses were more solid than he expected when he attacked them and was surprised by Goku's tenacity of not falling down when Goku challenged him h2h, so there's some surprise from Raditz too when fighting them h2h. Maybe not the surprise from such a big jump? Eh, maybe.

I sometimes also like to assume Tenshinhan grasped some concepts when it comes to suppression, he was already more in tune with chi than the others and saw first handed the way Goku could read chi while not looking, so maybe he was alreeady in a stage a little ahead and could suppress a little, with the 250 reading of him being, perhaps, not his FP. Likely not Toriyama's intention, but eh, Ten was even with weighted Goku in the 23rd Budokai, so it doesn't hurt having him at 315 or so when FP. It also gives more of a gap between him and Kuririn, which 250 vs 206 just doesn't seem to cut given their different levels in the Budokai.

Like

23rd

Yamcha 165
Kuririn 185
Weighted Goku
-- speed 225
-- strength 280

Tenshinhan 275

Mr. Popo 340

No weight Goku (vs ten) 375

Kami/Shen 450

Goku/Piccolo FP 680


BoZ

Yamcha 177
Kuririn 206
Tenshinhan 315
Goku 334
Popo 340
Goku no weights 408
Kami sama 450
Goku/Piccolo FP 800
KMHMH 924
Makankosappo 1,330

Well... I think most ppl would think of it as hogwash lol

 

[ahill1]

Ok, ended up making some edits on the list. Since it jas at least some backing, I've given SSJG3 a 10x (off SSJ) multiplier. I'd never come up to such multiplier on myself, but whatever, it's a state that focus only on power and is ultimately useless for battle. Trunks with it surpassed not just waming up, but FP Cell lol. The main problem is that Cell was fucked by SSJ2 Gohan with a kick to the head, and if we assume the multiplers works more or less for him, he'd need to be mad weakened to be fucked by a kick... Which shouldn't be the case as Gohan was still the only capable of defeating him. So idk how to take that one, maybe SSJg3 brings in a power increase but not an in increase in resilience, at least not proportionally.

I was back with 2x for SSJ since I used 2.5x more or less to match up with grade 3 but if I'm adopting a 10x for grade 3 then whatever. Gohan with a rage boost gets a 2.4x multiplier. Rage boost also helps in giving SSJ boo saga Vegeta some credit, he can be 1.33x stronger than CGs Goku under normal states (being even steonger than kid Gohan) while still being a little below SSJ2 kid Gohan.

I don't care much about guidebooks, but since there's no solid placements for some characters any ways and it said Shin was as strong as MSSJ CGs Goku, I've made them equals too (5 billions). That at least match up being in a different level from Piccolo if one thinks Piccolo was somewhat close to Vegeta and Trunks [CGs] and reached their level or Cell Junior level by the Boo saga.

Base Goku remains somewhat above #16 but is still heavily outclassed by initial Semi Cell.

 

[SSJ2]

Goku/Piccolo FP 800
KMHMH 924

I've always liked this idea as a concept but this seems too far. The KHH only being a 1.15x boost is not realistic. Raditz when from tooling both Goku and Piccolo at once to having to use his full effort to nullify the KHH. He treated it like a huge increase in power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Raditz was making a point to read every single power level alteration and freaking out over each of them. I really can’t see them going beyond those 400ish levels, as much as I want to.

Don’t forget SSJ Gohan > Shin on the Z Sword pulling. Is 1.1x enough for that difference? There’s folks stronger than Shin that couldn’t budge the sword.

 

[ahill1]

I've always liked this idea as a concept but this seems too far. The KHH only being a 1.15x boost is not realistic. Raditz when from tooling both Goku and Piccolo at once to having to use his full effort to nullify the KHH. He treated it like a huge increase in power.

That's true. I also think it's a concept that means taking many things for granted. But 924 was still considerably behind Raditz's full power, so maybe stopping the KMHMH, with their bare hands, for the nature of the attack being a blast, just requires more strength than stopping raw attacks?

 

[SIAD]

@ahill1

Interesting. What do you think about Vegeta telling Android #17 about which Trunks SSJ (pre top) = Future Trunks SSJ (CG)?

 

[ahill1]

@ahill1

Interesting. What do you think about Vegeta telling Android #17 about which Trunks SSJ (pre top) = Future Trunks SSJ (CG)?

I don't know. I don't take Super into account.

 

[SIAD]

I don't know. I don't take Super into account.

And what do you think @ahill1 @Kenshi about my next theory?

I'm thinking of having SSJ Trunks (Arc Saiyaman) = Future Trunks SSJ (CG), then Trunks and Goten get a lot stronger for TB25, later they get stronger in Rosat. Years pass and they maintain their power and only in the time of the Pre ToP of the Manga, do they weaken from not training and have the level they had in the Saiyaman Arc. After having been guarding the Island during the ToP, they returned to their former maximum power.

It could also be that Trunks and Goten in DBS were just a little rusty and had the same power as in the Saiyaman Arc. In the Manga they did not train before the ToP, while in the Anime, they were seen training a little. I think they just nerfed Goten and Trunks in DBS when they were kids and that's not why they should be weakened in Arc Boo?

Is there anything that contradicts having Goten SSJ (TB25) >= Piccolo (Arc Boo)?

This question is addressed to those who do not follow the Saiyan Base > Piccolo line?

Is there anything that says Goten SSJ is much stronger than Piccolo? Or is simply the only requirement that Goten SSJ be stronger than Piccolo and it doesn't matter by how much?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Android 16 250

Semi Cell (initially) : 420

You have Semi Cell less than 2x 17, yet there’s two tanking gaps between them.

Why have you regressed so much?

 

[ahill1]

I don't see your point. You refer to 19 vs Vegeta and Gohan vs Cell?

Well, that'd change little in the overall levels, really. Maybe it'd change the gaps, but the overall structure of the list would be pretty much the same, so why bother with specifics things such as tanking gaps while the factor that Semi Cell greatly outclasses 16 is conveyed by the numbers?

I could do:



19 vs ssj Vegeta -- 66/100
Cell vs ssj2 Gohsn -- 63/100
16 vs Semi Cell -- 60/100

It'd change some minor things, but the overall levels would remain pretty much the same.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I don't see your point. You refer to 19 vs Vegeta and Gohan vs Cell?

There's a multitude of things we've figured out on how to create a consistent list.

Imperfect Cell >> Light Grenade >> Piccolo

Piccolo 100
Light Grenade
Imperfect Cell

Then Android 16 is omega tanked by Semi-Perfect Cell. You aren't being consistent with your gaps and power chains.

19 vs ssj Vegeta -- 66/100
Cell vs ssj2 Gohsn -- 63/100
16 vs Semi Cell -- 60/100

These are all way too close. If we concluded that a 90/100 gap is a rivaling gap, that should be the same for tanking. Semi-Perfect's tank on Android 16 does not rival Super Vegeta's tank on Semi-Perfect Cell.

These are things you knew years ago. They were right then and they are right now.

 

[ahill1]

You can't make gaps for tank gaps. You may say gap A is > gap B because of tanking better, sure, but determining by how much the gaps should be spaced out is already tripping a lot. If Vegeta vs Semi Cell is a 70/100, who's to say a 60/100 can't tank way more efficiently? We don't know how difference in gaps will affect how impressive the tanking was. A rivaling gap still with the person up above dominating the fight mostly, with the below one struggling to keep up. Imagine a 16k warrior punching Kaioken Goku and then punching debut Vegeta... There might be a considerable difference in the way they will tank. I already accounted for gap a > gap b based on the tank feat, now heaving to account for spacing between the gaps is already something that has no basis for.

The thing with Piccolo we have already talked plenty. Piccolo was exhausted, thus his strongest attack was likely not as strong as it could be, and we don't know for sure its amplification, Cell had an aura covering himself, which may imply a defensive kinda chi employed, Cell didn't outright tank it as we haven't seen it, all we saw was him emerging from the water, he took slight damage and we have seen characters like Goku in the 23rd Budokai resist highly amplified attacks when mounting a defense, just like Piccolo did vs the Super KMHMH... All things to consider.

 

[Power Level Guy]

You can't make gaps for tank gaps.

Sure we can. Reecome cannot tank Vegeta.

So we know all tanking gaps are beyond the gap that existed between Vegeta and Reecome.

If Vegeta vs Semi Cell is a 70/100, who's to say a 60/100 can't tank way more efficiently?

Sounds reasonable to me. My issue has always been consistency. So long as you are consistent across the board I never have an issue so long as you abide by the factually agreed upon scenarios.

There might be a considerable difference in the way they will tank.

Indeed. I agree with this.

The thing with Piccolo we have already talked plenty. Piccolo was exhausted, thus his strongest attack was likely not as strong as it could be, and we don't know for sure its amplification

Well how stoned? If Piccolo is 100 what is his rating for his exhausted self and what is his Light Grenade rating?

Cell didn't outright tank it as we haven't seen it, all we saw was him emerging from the water, he took slight damage and we have seen characters like Goku in the 23rd Budokai resist highly amplified attacks when mounting a defense, just like Piccolo did vs the Super KMHMH... All things to consider.

Piccolo implies the Super KHH from the Budokai was nothing compared to the Light Grenade. So you gotta factor those things in too.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Consistency doesn’t exist. It’s made up.