Best battle powers ever

[Power Level Guy]

Yamcha : 2,000,000
Tenshinhan : 3,000,000
Kuririn : 4,000,000
Gohan : 6,000,000

Piccolo 370,000,000

Android 20 : 260,000,000
-- post Vegeta's blast : 280,000,000
-- post supp. piccolo : 310,000,000

How strong is Suppressed Piccolo? 30 mil?

You conveniently left out the Base Saiyans in the Androids Saga. Why?

 

[ahill1]

@Power Level Guy

There's no evidence, sure, but it falls back into my theory that the base state ia getting closer until, in the final evolution state, it's all accessible through a base-like state, without the need to transform, as Elder Kaioshin stated --- SSJ is the wrong way of doing things. Gohan represented the pinnacle of evolution. So I like to keep the base closer to the SSJ as long as the Saiyans evolve and draw nearer to their limits. And as for Gotenks as well, were I to apply the same SSJ multiplier, his pre RoSaT base would be too weak for my tastes... Barely above the kids as SSJs... So the 10x comes in handy for that.

Idk how strong supp Piccolo is. It eas enough to give Gero a decent boost, but it was a suppressed power that as Piccolo stated, was meaningless overall. The base Saiyans would be their SSJ power/50 there.

Vegeta -- 9,600,000
Goku -- 9,300,000
Trunks -- 8,540,000

In the CGs, Vegeta and Trunks, now with the SSJ multiplier being 25x, would be in the 500,000,000 range, more or less where they were as SSJs in the androids saga, somewhat stronger actually.

 

[Power Level Guy]

SSJ is the wrong way of doing things.

But they are still doing it the wrong way. The power is there's, the transformation is just a means of bringing it out. No one has ever gotten only half the boost associated with Super Saiyan.

And as for Gotenks as well, were I to apply the same SSJ multiplier, his pre RoSaT base would be too weak for my tastes... Barely above the kids as SSJs... So the 10x comes in handy for that.

Because you are nerfing the gap between Android 18 and MSSJ Goku.

Idk how strong supp Piccolo is.

He's supposed to be weaker than the Base Saiyans.

The base Saiyans would be their SSJ power/50 there.

Then you end up with Suppressed Piccolo over 3x stronger than Base Vegeta, who's implied to be stronger than Piccolo.

Also, Gohan + Krillen and Tien is supposed to equal Piccolo as well.

Did you forget about all of this stuff that has been well established?

In the CGs, Vegeta and Trunks, now with the SSJ multiplier being 25x, would be in the 500,000,000 range, more or less where they were as SSJs in the androids saga, somewhat stronger actually.

You are nerfing the Cell Saga, which is why you have to resort to a 25x boost.

 

[ahill1]

And as long as they evolve themselves, they'll do it the right way, little by little. There're steps for the evolution.

Nah, I think that's plenty enough.

Gohan + Kuririn + Ten was estimated by Gero as both being enough vs Vegeta, no where were them compared as the same boost it'd give Gero.

I didn't nerf anything. Maybe the only thing I could add is 50% MSSJ Goku as >>> grade 3 Trunks, but I don't see that as necessary and set in stone at all.

 

[Power Level Guy]

And as long as they evolve themselves, they'll do it the right way, little by little. There're steps for the evolution.

Nah, I think that's plenty enough.

When did one fighter turn Super Saiyan and get a 25x boost, while the other turns Super Saiyan and gets a 10x boost?

Gohan + Kuririn + Ten was estimated by Gero as both being enough vs Vegeta, no where were them compared as the same boost it'd give Gero.

Absorbing Piccolo again allows Gero to beat Vegeta, and absorbing the humans allows the same.

They are implied to both grant the same advantage.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nappa is stronger than Raditz. Vegeta is also stronger than Raditz. Therefore, Nappa = Vegeta.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Nappa is stronger than Raditz. Vegeta is also stronger than Raditz. Therefore, Nappa = Vegeta.

Well, no. This is more like, if I absorb Vegeta I can beat Monster Zarbon. But after I absorbed Vegeta, I could absorb Vegeta again and win, or I could absorb Raditz and win.

There’s some serious numerical defects in that argument.

Like it sounds all good when it’s vague. But when you have to break it down it doesn’t make sense.

Show me Expected Vegeta and Gero’s increases step by step and you’ll see your folly.

 

[ahill1]

When did one fighter turn Super Saiyan and get a 25x boost, while the other turns Super Saiyan and gets a 10x boost?


Absorbing Piccolo again allows Gero to beat Vegeta, and absorbing the humans allows the same.

They are implied to both grant the same advantage.

No one at the same time. At a same time frame and under same training, I've all Saiyans getting exactly the same boost, with the only, exceptional and minimal exception being EoZ Goku due to what I said, my theory that he's approaching his limits and his training, as he evolves to his ultimate-like state, is bringing all that power into his base state, making the base ~ SSj bridge was smaller, accounting for the Ultimate Saiyan warrior accessing all that power into a normal-like state. Gotenks unlocked more of the fighters potential and as long as they break thresholds, the gap between forms shrinks, which is wheh it went from 25x to 10x. 25x was already a diminished gap post them mastering the SSJ, already being a step towards the final warrior evolution and managing to access more power in their base states than they normally would, before mastering it.

They are implied to get Gero where he thought he'd get the job done... That doesn't mean they'd increase him by the same amount, as Gero didn't specify the ease in which he'd have dealing with Vegeta in each case.

Btw, do you agree Gero's estimations in dealing with Vegeta was off, right? Hw could tell how much power he'd get, but couldn't rightly estimate Vegeta's powers, true? If I were to consider Piccolo's supp power like his base power and assuming the 1:50 SSJ ratio, he could be 7,400,000 then.

If I wish to make Piccolo = Gohan + Tenshinhan + Kuririn, then...

It'd be far assuming Gohan would make 60% of Piccolo's power and the earthlings, the other 40%, with Kuririn filling the majority of the 40%


Piccolo 7,400,000
Gohan 4,500,000
Kuririn 1,750,000
Tenshinhan 1,300,000

There you'd go. Gohan would be weaker than where I'd generally have him. It's not a big deal though considering he preogressed quite a bit on his own before sparring with Goku, and judging by their sparring, he was still not on Goku's level initially.

 

[Power Level Guy]

No one at the same time. At a same time frame and under same training, I've all Saiyans getting exactly the same boost, with the only, exceptional and minimal exception being EoZ Goku due to what I said, my theory that he's approaching his limits and his training

What about those with minimal training like Goten and Trunks?

They are implied to get Gero where he thought he'd get the job done... That doesn't mean they'd increase him by the same amount, as Gero didn't specify the ease in which he'd have dealing with Vegeta in each case.

Ok, so show me how the humans help Gero get the job done.

If Gero is 100, what is Expected Vegeta and what are the humans?

Btw, do you agree Gero's estimations in dealing with Vegeta was off, right? Hw could tell how much power he'd get, but couldn't rightly estimate Vegeta's powers, true? If I were to consider Piccolo's supp power like his base power and assuming the 1:50 SSJ ratio, he could be 7,400,000 then.

Yeah, if you intend on keeping the 50x boost, you have to make up some stuff. Either way the power chain cannot be changed and it's...

Base Vegeta >= Base Goku > Suppressed Piccolo > Base Gohan

If I wish to make Piccolo = Gohan + Tenshinhan + Kuririn, then...

It'd be far assuming Gohan would make 60% of Piccolo's power and the earthlings, the other 40%, with Kuririn filling the majority of the 40%


Piccolo 7,400,000
Gohan 4,500,000
Kuririn 1,750,000
Tenshinhan 1,300,000

There you'd go. Gohan would be weaker than where I'd generally have him. It's not a big deal though considering he preogressed quite a bit on his own before sparring with Goku, and judging by their sparring, he was still not on Goku's level initially.

That looks much better. Although you have much more room than you think... I think... Remember to incorporate Unweighted Suppressed Piccolo into your factoring.

It can be Unsuppressed Piccolo ~ Gohan + Tien

So you just have to make some adjustments to account for it all. Looks much better though for sure.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I think I'm best off challenging the idea of a decreasing boost by going after the numerical issues of it.

I don't think you can afford to make the CG Super Saiyans less than 50x Android 18.

Obviously the ToP boys are post Rosat, but let's just see this.

Android 18 10
Base Kid Trunks 10

Super Saiyan Kid Trunks 500

To fit the entirety of the Cell Saga in between 10 and 500 is asking too much. If you incorporate all the various tank gaps, necessary minimums for multiplier like for the Grade forms and so on, it simply won't be able to fit.

 

[ahill1]

Like you said yourself, you can't have Gero getting a significant boost when applying a 50x boost there. So if you want to make any sense of his words in regards to an expected Vegeta, you'd have to already decrease the 50x boost right there. I'd rather not.

I think I can afford it... As I've done in my list. Actually, I've base Goten and Trunks more on the SSJs level in the androids saga, somewhat stronger actually...

 

[Power Level Guy]

Like you said yourself, you can't have Gero getting a significant boost when applying a 50x boost there. So if you want to make any sense of his words in regards to an expected Vegeta, you'd have to already decrease the 50x boost right there. I'd rather not.

If you are going to decrease it that’s a great place to start. There’s so many benefits to it.

 

[Kyo]

I used to decrease it right there and only there. The idea of a changing boost is stupid and it's only Gero's statements that ever necessitate in the story.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well you know the saying, Toriyama didn’t write thinking of multipliers.

But on the other hand, if they fit…

 

[Power Level Guy]

Well you know the saying, Toriyama didn’t write thinking of multipliers.

But on the other hand, if they fit…

Sometimes we have to forget the author and remember the real in universe things that are going on. It would be so strange for someone to think, “Hey, my Super Saiyan is getting weaker, but yours is not. What’s up with that?”

Every form makes sense being a multiplier. That is what is most logical. As the author said, “It’s not what I intended but it ended up being…”

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah if it ends up being, then it is what it is. I don’t see anything in DBZ that contradicts it either. Super and GT have some contradictions, but that’s par for the course. They’re also beyond the scope of this list.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah if it ends up being, then it is what it is. I don’t see anything in DBZ that contradicts it either. Super and GT have some contradictions, but that’s par for the course. They’re also beyond the scope of this list.

Yeah, you gotta stay manga only for this type of stuff. TOEI is straight up wild. I think I’ve concluded my post Androids Saga list now, you should check it out. And I PM’d you all the updates I made last night.

It’s good stuff, I’m able to use an old list that I used to go by in a very accurate way.

Check this out.

Android 18 225
Android 17 250
Future Trunks 300

Not bad huh?

 

[ahill1]

If you say the multiplier has changed for one part and came back to normal, you'd be arguing it changed at some point anyways. So it's not different from what I have.

 

[Power Level Guy]

If you say the multiplier has changed for one part and came back to normal, you'd be arguing it changed at some point anyways. So it's not different from what I have.

I didn't say it changed. I said if you are going to change, you might as well change it there. That would be a good point to do so.

But like I said, there's no way to fit in all the Cell Games in a 25x gap. It's impossible. There are severe power gaps going on in the Cell Saga, the only way to do it is to nerf it. You need every bit of that 50x to make the gap between the Androids and the Mastered Super Saiyans.

 

[ahill1]

I just made it fit.