Bio-Broly seems to be the only exception to the rule of new movie villains being stronger than the last. But is Bio-Broly really weaker than Movie 10 Broly, or did Goten and Trunks get Toei-boosted?
Bojack is also a exception to the rule, and so might be Hildegarn. Maybe even Janemba if Broly really is meant to be the strongest guy ever.
I’m not sure if the movies’s power scale quite lines up with the main series, but I really think Goten and Trunks are still their M10 levels (Who could be weaker or stronger than their Boo Saga selves). This means Bio-Broly probably is shit tier as well, probably Cell Games Goku tier if Movie Kids = Manga Kids.
The rule is for each opponent Goku faced, s Bojack is also an exception as already stated (unless you think one sucker punch counts as a fight). For Bio-Broly's power, it all depends on how strong the kids were in the film compared to their manga selves as their anime selves are presented as far weaker such as Base Gohan being able to fight SSJ Goten or #18 being able to endure hits from both the boys as SSJs. Considering Trunks seemed confident that they'd gotten stronger than the last time they fought Broly though, they're probably equal to their manga selves, though that still means Bio-Broly needn't even be on the level of his M8 LSSJ self.
Trunks and Goten received a tremendous axed thanks to the fact that in that period of time they met the God Yamcha, which made them strengthen tremendously, to the level of rivaling Broly LSSJ (M10).
Seriously speaking, I think the same as CC, in M10 they seemed to be just as powerful as in the Anime, where they weren't absolutely superior to # 18 and even in Movie 10, Gohan Base seemed to be stronger than the SSJ Children. While in M11, Trunks and Goten trusted that their power was tremendously greater, therefore, they surely have the same power as in TB25 and therefore, Bio Broly LSSJ should be between Goku SSJ (CG) and Kid Gohan SSJ .
Years ago I had the suspicion that when Bio Broly merges with the Island and becomes giant, he had even surpassed the power of Broly LSSJ (M10), but the point was that he could not use that tremendous power properly and just by receiving water, it would end up immobilizing. What do you think?
Bojack is also a exception to the rule, and so might be Hildegarn. Maybe even Janemba if Broly really is meant to be the strongest guy ever.
I’m not sure if the movies’s power scale quite lines up with the main series, but I really think Goten and Trunks are still their M10 levels (Who could be weaker or stronger than their Boo Saga selves). This means Bio-Broly probably is shit tier as well, probably Cell Games Goku tier if Movie Kids = Manga Kids.
Bojack is not an exception at all. He is stronger than movie 8 Broli from the same reason all other villain's are stronger because each one fights stronger characters
The rule is for each opponent Goku faced, s Bojack is also an exception as already stated (unless you think one sucker punch counts as a fight). For Bio-Broly's power, it all depends on how strong the kids were in the film compared to their manga selves as their anime selves are presented as far weaker such as Base Gohan being able to fight SSJ Goten or #18 being able to endure hits from both the boys as SSJs. Considering Trunks seemed confident that they'd gotten stronger than the last time they fought Broly though, they're probably equal to their manga selves, though that still means Bio-Broly needn't even be on the level of his M8 LSSJ self.
Again no. It's not about the character Goku fights but about the villain fighting stronger z fighters. It's been discussed many times. The reason why every villian is stronger is because he fights stronger z fighters. Bojack fights stronger Z fighters so he is stronger than Movie 8 Broli. You can argue Bio Broli ~ M8 Broli as the villager took the blood of the near death movie 8 Broli. It fits perfectly with M8 Broli being CG FPSSjin tier and also fits with Trunks and Goten able to hold their own as you also seem to agree their manga states are not far below Boo Arc Gohan who is probably as strong as CG Goku. Easy reading comprehension here
Koyama obviously bluffs. When he was asked why Broli appeared three times he said that becasuse he is the strongest with laughs as mark. Then he said no one on the TV series can beat him. That's just him being biased about his creation. I wanna treat a point though.
People seem to say Bojack is not necessarily included in the statement of new movie villain's are stronger because he never fought Goku and because Koyama mentions Goku's name as an obvious general way to talk about the movies overall.
Look at the context of his statement.
"In handling the scripts for the films, what I always worried about each time was the problem of what to do about the opponent Goku fights against. That’s because, at the very least, they had to be stronger than [the ones from] the previous movie."
Look at the bold part. Koyama says the next villian HAD TO BE STRONGER. Now, why does he say the villian had to be stronger?
For the sake of it, we will compare it to villians Goku fights
Why does Doctor Uiru have to be stronger than Garlic Jr?
Simple, because Uiru fights stronger Zfighters and a stronger Goku
Why does Tullece have to be stronger than Uiru?
Because Tullece fights stronger Z warriors and a stronger Goku
Why does Bojack have to be stronger than M8 Broli?
Because he fights stronger Z fighters than Broli did
See it now? mentioning Goku is just in a general way because he appears in mpst of the movies and the main hero.. But the reason of why Bojack is stronger than M8 Broli is no different than the reason of why Tullece is stronger than Uiru or Uiru is strongee than Garlic Jr. The reason is the Z fighters strength which increase in every arc and not Goku himself. That does not even make sense going by context.
By the way, he seems to forget that Bojack existed in between.
As for the topic Bio Broli is the only exception because he fights Goten and Trunks. Toriyama says in one of his manga notes, that he was already getting consulted about what to do with movie 11 a month before movie 10 was released and that movies are tough, probably because TOEI could not use anything in movie 11 as Goku could not be used as his SSjin 3 did not exist and there was nothing that could be used in movie 11 that was based on the late Budokai arc so Bio Broli is the only exception.
Here is also a good comparison of how TOEI did all the movies
I have already discussed it and actually showed how the movies follow almost an always same logic based on their release time and production compared to both manga and anime. When it comes to strength, sometimes (not often) you can get a little needed hax in order to make the supporting heroes relevant to Goku who is the main pinnacle of strength. Movie 3 is a perfect example
Movie 1 is based on the Raditz arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Garlic Jr doesn't surpass Raditz because there is no progression in terms of strength after a long time in the anime. However you can argue that Garlic Jrs Dead Zone is comparable to Raditz. Enraged Gohan that killed Garlic Jr uses a similar blast he did when he blasted the mountain after Piccolo threw him. Piccolo stated at that point that Gohan's power was even greater than he imagined meaning greater than 1,307
Movie 2 is based on the Vegeta Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have about the same power.
Movie 3 is based on the Namek Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and such. In this movie we get Goku at 30k+ while in the series he was never stated to have that battle power but since the movie is based on the Namek Arc and in that arc Goku was mid training, you can see they gave him the 30k power level because the highest power shown at that point was Monster Zarbon and two episodes later we get 30k Vegeta killing Zarbon. That's the main point by the way. The movie villian surpass the highest power shown in the series and get matched 2 or 3 episodes later in the anime by the next stronger guy that appears. You can check it out too in Kanzenshuu by the dates of the manga and anime. Go and do it. The rest of the heroes in movie 3 are also mid training at Kaio so you can give them a random power level based on their training. Piccolo being 18k is another indication for that because in the Namek Arc that was the stated power level of Cui and Vegeta before his zenkai. Another interesting thing that Gohan is 10k. He got a needed hax as the movie came before he got the power up from Guru so probably because TOEI wanted him to be relevant. In episode 48, I think Zarbon said Gohan and Krillin are stronger than the Namekians who the average ones were 3k. Also in episode 63, while Gohan and Krillin fought Guldo, TOEI neglected the line from the manga where Jiece says both Gohan and Krillin have a battle power that surpasses 10k. We can clearly see TOEI being very consistent in their intention when it comes to the comparision of the anime and movies when it comes to strength. Tullece is around the 30k, surpasses Monster Zarbon and 2 episodes later get matched by Vegeta after his Zenkai. At his peak he rivals 1st form Freeza who was the main threat and terror of the Namek Arc
Movie 4 is based on the Ginyu Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. I follow the line of M4 False SSjin Goku being comparable to Vegeta's last Zenkai on Namek because the latter was also described as a SSjin although he turned out not to be, and Giant Slug as strong as Initial Final Form Freeza and Goku (Post Ginyu Zenkai) M4 False SSjin Goku was said to not be able to withstand Slug just like Vegeta was not able to against Initial Final Form Freeza. By that Slug surpasses 3rd form Freeza while he and False SSjin Goku get matched 2-3 episodes after movie 4 release. Old Slug being as strong as Ginyu and his henchmen being as strong as Recoome, Burter and Jiece also seems to be obvious. as for his young state before being giant, I would say it's irrelevant but he can be as strong as 2nd form Freeza or Weighted Nailccolo, I dunno
Movie 5 is based on the Freeza Arc. by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Goku is even stronger though because it's needed as Coola is even stronger than Freeza, but it's explained he got stronger because he kept training. Still, Coola surpasses Frieza who was the strongest at that point. No progression in terms of strength after this movie for a long time.
Now to the Cell Saga that seems to match perfectly with the anime.
Movie 6 is based on the Androids Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Yeah Dende is shown in movie 6 and I admit it's the only bullshit in a movie that I don't get it yet but it doesn't affect in any way the heroes power levels. Piccolo is clearly weaker than Goku and Vegeta who are the same as they were during the first portion of the Androids Saga. Hell, Vegeta is even implied in the end to be a little stronger than Goku by Goku himself just like he was during the fight with Android 20. Piccolo is not even shown to be relevant to the SSjins at this point like he was in the series probably because the movie came just before Piccolo showed his power vs Android 20. Yeah that's how TOEI made the movies, we can't get spoiled to the hero's power before it's introduced in the series which is what I *bleep*ing keep saying for years regarding movie 8 too. Initial Metal Coola rivals SSjin Goku but Metal Coola at his peak surpass SSjin Goku and Vegeta who were the strongest at that point and is clearly comparable to Android 18 who appears 2-3 episodes after movie 6 release. The combined power of Vegeta and Goku that overpowered Metal Coola can be as strong as Android 18 or Android 17 who showed his power 5 episodes later
Movie 7 is based on the Imperfect Cell ar by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Goku is the main hero so he fights the strongest android, Toei likely had Goku stronger after the heart virus and it doesn't contradict anything as I believe Movie 7 followed the line of Android 13 ~ Imperfect Cell (Ginget Town) and Super 13 ~ Imperfect Cell (Post Humans). Super 13 surpasses the highest power shown in the series which was Kamiccolo and Android 17 and is comparable to Imperfect Cell (Post Human) who appears when? 2-3 episodes after the movie release. SSjin Goku after absorbing the Genki Dama can be as strong as Semi Perfect Cell that appears 5 episodes episodes after movie 7 release. I know the Daizneshuu says Android 16 is the strongest besides Cell but I believe it means in the canon world because 16 appears only in the canon world and let's say 16 is stronger, Super 13 can be 90% of his power and still be a little weaker. Ironically, it further proves that the movie villians surpass the highest power shown in the series and can't be stronger than a character that shows his power like 10 episodes after the movie release.
Movie 8 is based on the Perfect Cell Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Trunks and Vegeta are 1st Post ASSjins. Goku and Gohan are based on their initial Post Rosat states where Goku is just known and shown to be ahead of ASSjin Vegeta which is exactly what movie 8 shows too.
RSSjin Broli ~ USSjin Trunks (he tanks ASSjin Vegeta's kick similar to Cell although albiet better which is why him being as strong as strong as USSjin Trunks Makes sense) Also notice how RSSjin Broli (who we assume is as strong as USSjin Trunks based on how he tanked Vegeta) is implied to surpass Movie 8 Goku (who maxes out at his initial Post Rosat state which is stronger than ASSjin Vegeta but comparable to Warm Up Perfect Cell)? This is just like USSjin Trunks surpasses Warm Up Perfect Cell. All lines up to the Perfect Cell Arc.
SSjin Broli ~ 50% CG Goku. the scene he powers up seems similar to how Goku powered up to 50% at Korrin's tower.
LSSjin Broly is as strong as CG Goku at his 100%. The highest power shown prior to movie 8 was USSjin Trunks this Broli surpasses him. (his design by the way is based on USSjin Trunks) and matches CG Goku. And when did Goku fought Cell at full power? You guessed right, 2-3 episodes after movie 8 release just like most of the movies. Goku who killed Broli can be as strong as CG FPSSjin Gohan who showed his power 5 episodes after movie 9 release
Movie 9 is based on the Cell Games arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power.
Blue Bojack ~ Suppressed Perfect Cell vs Goku and Gohan
Green Bojack is comparable to FP Perfect Cell. And since there is no progression after movie 9 in terms of power for a long time, then Bojack can't surpass SSjin 2 Gohan but he matches the highest threat of the CG Arc which was FP Perfect Cell.
Movie 10 is based on the Great Saiyaman Arc and the beginning of the Budokai as by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Movie 10 Broli surpasses the highest power shown at that point at this point which was SSiin 2 Kid Gohan and SPC and is comparable to SSjin 2 Goku. 2-3 episodes later Goku shows his Burst SSjin 2 vs Yakon.
Bio Broli is the only irrelevant movie because he fights Goten and Trunks who are weaklings compared to Goku Vegeta and Gohan at their best. It's explained why movie 11 was even made as Inpointed out that Toriyama wrote in one of his notes in the manga (ironically the chapter where Goku and Majin Vegeta transformed into SSjin 2 to fight) that he gets consulted on what to do with movie 11 despite the fact movie 10 was still a month away to be released and that movies are really tough. That alone proves my entire point about the movies follow a specific line of surpassing the strongest character and getting matched 2-3 episodes later with the next stronger series canon. Logically a movie 11 Villian should be stronger than SSjin 2 Goku and Majin Vegeta because they were the highest power shown at that point and likely rivalling Fat Boo who showed his power 2-3 episodes later too. (Similiar to movie 6 where Metal Coola surpasses SSjins Goku and Vegeta and is comparable to Android 18) but since Toei could not use Goku and Vegeta in movie 10 due to their SSjin 2s not existing yet and they could not use Goku in movie 11 due to his SSjin 3 not existing yet, then they had go consult Toriyama on what to do and had no choice but to make a movie with Goten Trunks and 18 which were also a main part of the arc this movie follows the end of the world of tournament. If anything, you can even argue Bio Broli is as strong as movie 8 Broli as the blood that made Bio Broli was of Broli from movie 8 before getting a Zenkai which is another proof that M8 Broli is CG Goku level as the kids are not far off Gohan as you also seem to believe.
Movie 12 is based on the Majin Boo Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. In this ml ovie Goku is somewhat stronger due to the hax he keeps getting in the anime in the Boo Saga
Fat Janemba is indirectly compared to Fat Boo by Goku though even stronger. Super Janemba is likely comparable to Evil Boo though doesnt need to be exactly as strong as his FP but just surpasses the highest power shown which was suppressed Evil Boo vs SSjin Gotenks.
Evil Boo's full power is shown 2-3 episodes after movie 12 release. 5 episodes after movie 12 was released we get Ultimate Gohan easily manhandling Evil Boo so we can say SSjin Gogeta ~ Ultimate Gohan based on the same method that seems to be in most of the movies
Movie 13 is based on the main Fusion Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Again, Goku does have a similiar power he did in the anime as his SSjin3 was able to survive Gotenks-Boo or his SSjin state even made Gohan-Boo so Movie 13 Goku is based on this current haxed Goku in the anime. In the next episodes we get a super haxed Goku who fights Pure Boo and both are stronger than Vegetto. Movie 13 was released while Gohan-Boo and Vegetto were fighting, there was no serious progression until the Pure Boo fight so Hirudegarn can be stronger than the strongest villian at that point which was Gohan-Boo and the Dragon Fist of Goku as strong as SSjin Vegetto. They still fought for 2 other episodes after movie 13 release in the series.
See now how it's all perfected and clearly fits. It's basically called evidence. You can't say it's not a clear evidence a good analysis of the movies. It even has more evidence than a scientific theory lol. and good study of the movies compared to manga and anime for years. Go do it to and compare all the movies and see their main goal.
People seem to say Bojack is not necessarily included in the statement of new movie villain's are stronger because he never fought Goku and because Koyama mentions Goku's name as an obvious general way to talk about the movies overall.
No, that's just you ignoring what Koyama directly
The statement directly refers to the opponents Goku fights, so that's literally incorrect. Viewing it as those the Dragon Team face in general is an interpretation of it and not taking what is said at face value. Moreover, the fact you even cite Bio-Broly as an exception shows it's not an absolute rule, and your reasoning as to why it's an exception is exactly the same as why people view Bojack as the exception too.
Bojack fights stronger Z fighters so he is stronger than Movie 8 Broli.
Again, an opinion based on interpretation, with very little hard evidence to back it up. Official sources actually citing how Broly stacks up to characters within the canon vary wildly from Koyama (directly saying to you, I might add) that there's no solid way of comparing Broly and Cell due to different continuities, Daizenshuu 6 placing it during the wait from the Cell Games and even as outlandish as BT3/Raging Blast placing it before #19 and #20's arrival. Unless there is an official source directly comparing how Broly stacks up to both canon and movie villains or how the M8 fighters compare to their Cell Games self, then this remains purely an interpretation.
You can argue Bio Broli ~ M8 Broli as the villager took the blood of the near death movie 8 Broli. It fits perfectly with M8 Broli being CG FPSSjin tier and also fits with Trunks and Goten able to hold their own as you also seem to agree their manga states are not far below Boo Arc Gohan who is probably as strong as CG Goku. Easy reading comprehension here.
Leaving aside the fact that these two people at least as strong as CG Goku got stomped by this Broly, it'd be a stretch to say the clone was perfectly able to gain all the power the original possessed.
Look at the bold part. Koyama says the next villian HAD TO BE STRONGER. Now, why does he say the villian had to be stronger?
Generally, the power scale of the series increased rapidly between the release of each of the films. The major exception would be those released during the wait and after the Cell Games, wherein the only major change was Gohan having access to SS2.
By the way, he seems to forget that Bojack existed in between.
People seem to say Bojack is not necessarily included in the statement of new movie villain's are stronger because he never fought Goku and because Koyama mentions Goku's name as an obvious general way to talk about the movies overall.
No, that's just you ignoring what Koyama directly
The statement directly refers to the opponents Goku fights, so that's literally incorrect. Viewing it as those the Dragon Team face in general is an interpretation of it and not taking what is said at face value. Moreover, the fact you even cite Bio-Broly as an exception shows it's not an absolute rule, and your reasoning as to why it's an exception is exactly the same as why people view Bojack as the exception too.
Bojack fights stronger Z fighters so he is stronger than Movie 8 Broli.
Again, an opinion based on interpretation, with very little hard evidence to back it up. Official sources actually citing how Broly stacks up to characters within the canon vary wildly from Koyama (directly saying to you, I might add) that there's no solid way of comparing Broly and Cell due to different continuities, Daizenshuu 6 placing it during the wait from the Cell Games and even as outlandish as BT3/Raging Blast placing it before #19 and #20's arrival. Unless there is an official source directly comparing how Broly stacks up to both canon and movie villains or how the M8 fighters compare to their Cell Games self, then this remains purely an interpretation.
You can argue Bio Broli ~ M8 Broli as the villager took the blood of the near death movie 8 Broli. It fits perfectly with M8 Broli being CG FPSSjin tier and also fits with Trunks and Goten able to hold their own as you also seem to agree their manga states are not far below Boo Arc Gohan who is probably as strong as CG Goku. Easy reading comprehension here.
Leaving aside the fact that these two people at least as strong as CG Goku got stomped by this Broly, it'd be a stretch to say the clone was perfectly able to gain all the power the original possessed.
Look at the bold part. Koyama says the next villian HAD TO BE STRONGER. Now, why does he say the villian had to be stronger?
Generally, the power scale of the series increased rapidly between the release of each of the films. The major exception would be those released during the wait and after the Cell Games, wherein the only major change was Gohan having access to SS2.
By the way, he seems to forget that Bojack existed in between.
You are basically answering yourself here. By the way, when I asked Koyama about how can Broli be the strongest if he said the new movie villians are stronger than the lasts. This is what he answered.
Notice how he includes Bojack Janemba and Hirudegarn as the same? He doesn't say Bojack is an exception because he did not fight Goku. Bojack follows the same logic as all other movie villians. Also in DBH when Bojack appeared with Tullece, Fu refers both Bojack and Goku as being defeated by Goku himself. While heroes is bullshit, you can still get my point that TOEI also seems to say the same thing overall. While Goku never fought Bojack directly, he is still considered as one of the main reasons for his defeat as he was the main hero of the series. Again mentioning Goku in a general way because he was the main hero is clearly the meaning based on the context. Bio Broli is not the same and he is really the only exception because he fights weaker fighters who were Goten and Trunks. TOEI broke the pattern here due to not being able to do anything new as explained already. Bojack in the other hand fights stronger Z fighters so he follows the same logic as the rest which is exactly why the next villian has to be stronger.
Come on now?? Little evidence? Massive evidence proven by tons of proof which you seem to ignore. Placing the movie has no issue anyway. The z senshi are based on what they were before the Cell Games. Look at the message of Koyama in Japanese. He sent me to a Anime Jap website called "nico nico" there it states the Z fighters were based on what they were before the Cell's idea for the Cell Games. I can show it to you if you like. The Z fighters are stronger in every movie. Also, M8 Vegeta and Trunks are based on their ASSjins vs Cell. Goku and Gohan are based on their initial Post Rosat states. That's all stated and shown.
Why are Goten and Trunks are at least as strong as CG Goku? They are weaker than Boo Arc Gohan in equal forms and they did not get exactly stomped. They were able to overpower him in a lot of points.
As for your last paragraph, EXACTLY, in every movie there is a big increase in power for the Z warriors' that's the entire reason why every movie is made because he is based on a different arc.There is a massive difference between movie 9 and movie 8 just like other movies. Movie 9 Vegeta and Trunks are their CG selves but they are 1st Post Rosat in movie 8. M9 Gohan is his CG self but in movie 8 he is based on his initial Post Rosat self and is in par with 1 Rosat Trunks. I don't wanna get into the whole M8 Goku being just stronger than M8 Vegeta who is as strong as 1st Post Rosat ASSjin Vegeta and being comparable to his Initial Post Rosat/Warm up state but you get my point anyway. Also if you read my last spoiler on how every movie was made and how they are all compared you would realize my stance here but you choose to ignore it all the time despite the fact I am showing you the evidence. I will post it again how every movie fits a specific time line and a clear intention by comparing all the movies and how TOEI did that. You seem to ignore it.
I have already discussed it and actually showed how the movies follow almost an always same logic based on their release time and production compared to both manga and anime. When it comes to strength, sometimes (not often) you can get a little needed hax in order to make the supporting heroes relevant to Goku who is the main pinnacle of strength. Movie 3 is a perfect example
Movie 1 is based on the Raditz arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Garlic Jr doesn't surpass Raditz because there is no progression in terms of strength after a long time in the anime. However you can argue that Garlic Jrs Dead Zone is comparable to Raditz. Enraged Gohan that killed Garlic Jr uses a similar blast he did when he blasted the mountain after Piccolo threw him. Piccolo stated at that point that Gohan's power was even greater than he imagined meaning greater than 1,307
Movie 2 is based on the Vegeta Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have about the same power.
Movie 3 is based on the Namek Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and such. In this movie we get Goku at 30k+ while in the series he was never stated to have that battle power but since the movie is based on the Namek Arc and in that arc Goku was mid training, you can see they gave him the 30k power level because the highest power shown at that point was Monster Zarbon and two episodes later we get 30k Vegeta killing Zarbon. That's the main point by the way. The movie villian surpass the highest power shown in the series and get matched 2 or 3 episodes later in the anime by the next stronger guy that appears. You can check it out too in Kanzenshuu by the dates of the manga and anime. Go and do it. The rest of the heroes in movie 3 are also mid training at Kaio so you can give them a random power level based on their training. Piccolo being 18k is another indication for that because in the Namek Arc that was the stated power level of Cui and Vegeta before his zenkai. Another interesting thing that Gohan is 10k. He got a needed hax as the movie came before he got the power up from Guru so probably because TOEI wanted him to be relevant. In episode 48, I think Zarbon said Gohan and Krillin are stronger than the Namekians who the average ones were 3k. Also in episode 63, while Gohan and Krillin fought Guldo, TOEI neglected the line from the manga where Jiece says both Gohan and Krillin have a battle power that surpasses 10k. We can clearly see TOEI being very consistent in their intention when it comes to the comparision of the anime and movies when it comes to strength. Tullece is around the 30k, surpasses Monster Zarbon and 2 episodes later get matched by Vegeta after his Zenkai. At his peak he rivals 1st form Freeza who was the main threat and terror of the Namek Arc
Movie 4 is based on the Ginyu Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. I follow the line of M4 False SSjin Goku being comparable to Vegeta's last Zenkai on Namek because the latter was also described as a SSjin although he turned out not to be, and Giant Slug as strong as Initial Final Form Freeza and Goku (Post Ginyu Zenkai) M4 False SSjin Goku was said to not be able to withstand Slug just like Vegeta was not able to against Initial Final Form Freeza. By that Slug surpasses 3rd form Freeza while he and False SSjin Goku get matched 2-3 episodes after movie 4 release. Old Slug being as strong as Ginyu and his henchmen being as strong as Recoome, Burter and Jiece also seems to be obvious. as for his young state before being giant, I would say it's irrelevant but he can be as strong as 2nd form Freeza or Weighted Nailccolo, I dunno
Movie 5 is based on the Freeza Arc. by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Goku is even stronger though because it's needed as Coola is even stronger than Freeza, but it's explained he got stronger because he kept training. Still, Coola surpasses Frieza who was the strongest at that point. No progression in terms of strength after this movie for a long time.
Now to the Cell Saga that seems to match perfectly with the anime.
Movie 6 is based on the Androids Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Yeah Dende is shown in movie 6 and I admit it's the only bullshit in a movie that I don't get it yet but it doesn't affect in any way the heroes power levels. Piccolo is clearly weaker than Goku and Vegeta who are the same as they were during the first portion of the Androids Saga. Hell, Vegeta is even implied in the end to be a little stronger than Goku by Goku himself just like he was during the fight with Android 20. Piccolo is not even shown to be relevant to the SSjins at this point like he was in the series probably because the movie came just before Piccolo showed his power vs Android 20. Yeah that's how TOEI made the movies, we can't get spoiled to the hero's power before it's introduced in the series which is what I *bleep*ing keep saying for years regarding movie 8 too. Initial Metal Coola rivals SSjin Goku but Metal Coola at his peak surpass SSjin Goku and Vegeta who were the strongest at that point and is clearly comparable to Android 18 who appears 2-3 episodes after movie 6 release. The combined power of Vegeta and Goku that overpowered Metal Coola can be as strong as Android 18 or Android 17 who showed his power 5 episodes later
Movie 7 is based on the Imperfect Cell ar by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Goku is the main hero so he fights the strongest android, Toei likely had Goku stronger after the heart virus and it doesn't contradict anything as I believe Movie 7 followed the line of Android 13 ~ Imperfect Cell (Ginget Town) and Super 13 ~ Imperfect Cell (Post Humans). Super 13 surpasses the highest power shown in the series which was Kamiccolo and Android 17 and is comparable to Imperfect Cell (Post Human) who appears when? 2-3 episodes after the movie release. SSjin Goku after absorbing the Genki Dama can be as strong as Semi Perfect Cell that appears 5 episodes episodes after movie 7 release. I know the Daizneshuu says Android 16 is the strongest besides Cell but I believe it means in the canon world because 16 appears only in the canon world and let's say 16 is stronger, Super 13 can be 90% of his power and still be a little weaker. Ironically, it further proves that the movie villians surpass the highest power shown in the series and can't be stronger than a character that shows his power like 10 episodes after the movie release.
Movie 8 is based on the Perfect Cell Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Trunks and Vegeta are 1st Post ASSjins. Goku and Gohan are based on their initial Post Rosat states where Goku is just known and shown to be ahead of ASSjin Vegeta which is exactly what movie 8 shows too.
RSSjin Broli ~ USSjin Trunks (he tanks ASSjin Vegeta's kick similar to Cell although albiet better which is why him being as strong as strong as USSjin Trunks Makes sense) Also notice how RSSjin Broli (who we assume is as strong as USSjin Trunks based on how he tanked Vegeta) is implied to surpass Movie 8 Goku (who maxes out at his initial Post Rosat state which is stronger than ASSjin Vegeta but comparable to Warm Up Perfect Cell)? This is just like USSjin Trunks surpasses Warm Up Perfect Cell. All lines up to the Perfect Cell Arc.
SSjin Broli ~ 50% CG Goku. the scene he powers up seems similar to how Goku powered up to 50% at Korrin's tower.
LSSjin Broly is as strong as CG Goku at his 100%. The highest power shown prior to movie 8 was USSjin Trunks this Broli surpasses him. (his design by the way is based on USSjin Trunks) and matches CG Goku. And when did Goku fought Cell at full power? You guessed right, 2-3 episodes after movie 8 release just like most of the movies. Goku who killed Broli can be as strong as CG FPSSjin Gohan who showed his power 5 episodes after movie 9 release
Movie 9 is based on the Cell Games arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power.
Blue Bojack ~ Suppressed Perfect Cell vs Goku and Gohan
Green Bojack is comparable to FP Perfect Cell. And since there is no progression after movie 9 in terms of power for a long time, then Bojack can't surpass SSjin 2 Gohan but he matches the highest threat of the CG Arc which was FP Perfect Cell.
Movie 10 is based on the Great Saiyaman Arc and the beginning of the Budokai as by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Movie 10 Broli surpasses the highest power shown at that point at this point which was SSiin 2 Kid Gohan and SPC and is comparable to SSjin 2 Goku. 2-3 episodes later Goku shows his Burst SSjin 2 vs Yakon.
Bio Broli is the only irrelevant movie because he fights Goten and Trunks who are weaklings compared to Goku Vegeta and Gohan at their best. It's explained why movie 11 was even made as Inpointed out that Toriyama wrote in one of his notes in the manga (ironically the chapter where Goku and Majin Vegeta transformed into SSjin 2 to fight) that he gets consulted on what to do with movie 11 despite the fact movie 10 was still a month away to be released and that movies are really tough. That alone proves my entire point about the movies follow a specific line of surpassing the strongest character and getting matched 2-3 episodes later with the next stronger series canon. Logically a movie 11 Villian should be stronger than SSjin 2 Goku and Majin Vegeta because they were the highest power shown at that point and likely rivalling Fat Boo who showed his power 2-3 episodes later too. (Similiar to movie 6 where Metal Coola surpasses SSjins Goku and Vegeta and is comparable to Android 18) but since Toei could not use Goku and Vegeta in movie 10 due to their SSjin 2s not existing yet and they could not use Goku in movie 11 due to his SSjin 3 not existing yet, then they had go consult Toriyama on what to do and had no choice but to make a movie with Goten Trunks and 18 which were also a main part of the arc this movie follows the end of the world of tournament. If anything, you can even argue Bio Broli is as strong as movie 8 Broli as the blood that made Bio Broli was of Broli from movie 8 before getting a Zenkai which is another proof that M8 Broli is CG Goku level as the kids are not far off Gohan as you also seem to believe.
Movie 12 is based on the Majin Boo Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. In this ml ovie Goku is somewhat stronger due to the hax he keeps getting in the anime in the Boo Saga
Fat Janemba is indirectly compared to Fat Boo by Goku though even stronger. Super Janemba is likely comparable to Evil Boo though doesnt need to be exactly as strong as his FP but just surpasses the highest power shown which was suppressed Evil Boo vs SSjin Gotenks.
Evil Boo's full power is shown 2-3 episodes after movie 12 release. 5 episodes after movie 12 was released we get Ultimate Gohan easily manhandling Evil Boo so we can say SSjin Gogeta ~ Ultimate Gohan based on the same method that seems to be in most of the movies
Movie 13 is based on the main Fusion Arc by the time it was made the similar scenes and the heroes also have the same power. Again, Goku does have a similiar power he did in the anime as his SSjin3 was able to survive Gotenks-Boo or his SSjin state even made Gohan-Boo so Movie 13 Goku is based on this current haxed Goku in the anime. In the next episodes we get a super haxed Goku who fights Pure Boo and both are stronger than Vegetto. Movie 13 was released while Gohan-Boo and Vegetto were fighting, there was no serious progression until the Pure Boo fight so Hirudegarn can be stronger than the strongest villian at that point which was Gohan-Boo and the Dragon Fist of Goku as strong as SSjin Vegetto. They still fought for 2 other episodes after movie 13 release in the series.
See now how it's all perfected and clearly fits. It's basically called evidence. You can't say it's not a clear evidence a good analysis of the movies. It even has more evidence than a scientific theory lol. and good study of the movies compared to manga and anime for years. Go do it to and compare all the movies and see their main goal.
And you are right this is really little evidence compared to all the massive information I have. I want to make a video explaining it but it's too much info but I will do it sometime.
You are basically answering yourself here. By the way, when I asked Koyama about how can Broli be the strongest if he said the new movie villians are stronger than the lasts. This is what he answered.
Notice how he includes Bojack Janemba and Hirudegarn as the same? He doesn't say Bojack is an exception because he did not fight Goku. Bojack follows the same logic as all other movie villians.
He quite literally said he couldn't think of a character stronger than Broly and has made it apparent he thought Broly was unmatched until Beerus in his eyes, despite this being the same man who stated each villain Goku faces surpasses the next. If you're using the latter statement as the crux of your Bojack > Broly argument despite it being the very same source who stated nobody could surpass Broly and makes his stance on Broly's power very apparent, then that's textbook cognitive dissonance. It's pretty clear that Koyama doesn't take his "rule" into account when concerning his favourite creation.
Moreover, the same source as your "every movie villains is stronger than the last" ideology (Koyama) outright said the reason Broly appeared 3 times was that he couldn't come up with a villain stronger than him, thus confirming M8 Broly > Bojack.
"After much hard work, I was unable to come up with an opponent stronger than Broli, and fell into a rut where I made him appear three times."
Also in DBH when Bojack appeared with Tullece, Fu refers both Bojack and Goku as being defeated by Goku himself. While heroes is bullshit, you can still get my point that TOEI also seems to say the same thing overall. While Goku never fought Bojack directly, he is still considered as one of the main reasons for his defeat as he was the main hero of the series.
You're applying context not only from a side project like Heroes, but one in which its core premise is changing the timeline. Talk about reaching, especially when it's obvious to anyone who watched DBZ Movie 9 Goku indeed didn't defeat Bojack in that timeline.
Bio Broli is not the same and he is really the only exception because he fights weaker fighters who were Goten and Trunks. TOEI broke the pattern here due to not being able to do anything new as explained already. Bojack in the other hand fights stronger Z fighters so he follows the same logic as the rest which is exactly why the next villian has to be stronger.
If there is one exception, that opens up room for others, and it's pretty clear Koyama makes anything an exception when it comes to Broly.
He sent me to a Anime Jap website called "nico nico" there it states the Z fighters were based on what they were before the Cell's idea for the Cell Games. I can show it to you if you like.
Do you know what else is shown and stated? How Cell Game/Post-Cell Game Super Saiyans compare to Hatchiyack in the OVA. The original OVA was made at the time the Cell Game took place and the remake had the benefit of all of Z already having been made, and in both Hatchiyack tanks SSJ Vegeta's Final Flash and easily deals with both SSJ Trunks and Gohan despite Goku saying that he "might" be stronger than Broly, thus showing us Broly is capable of the same feats. In other words, it doesn't matter how the Dragon Team compare to their Cell Game selves in M8 when an official source actually gives us an idea of how Broly would fare against their Cell Game incarnations.
Why are Goten and Trunks are at least as strong as CG Goku? They are weaker than Boo Arc Gohan in equal forms and they did not get exactly stomped. They were able to overpower him in a lot of points.
The Daizenshuu states Goten is "not the slightest bit inferior in power" to Gohan and states Gohan's strength hasn't changed in those 7 years apart from in SS2 due to not accessing as much rage. Regardless of what you think of that, this is an official source that provides a good idea of how Goten compares to CG Goku. There's also the Super manga showing him capable of fending off 3 Cell Juniors at once, a feat it's questionable if Goku could accomplish at the Cell Game to 3 people stronger than Vegeta or Trunks when they were already above 50% of his power.
Also if you read my last spoiler on how every movie was made and how they are all compared you would realize my stance here but you choose to ignore it all the time despite the fact I am showing you the evidence. I will post it again how every movie fits a specific time line and a clear intention by comparing all the movies and how TOEI did that. You seem to ignore it.
Because it's overall pointless and verbose, boiling down to just "Villain is stronger than last because Dragon Team are stronger except when they're not." Not anything that requires much evidence to be aware of when it happens due to the movies making it apparent through various feats and statements (Goku's Kaioken in Movie 2, Goku's 30k+ battle power and Kaioken x10 in Movie 3, Kaio saying Slug > Freeza, etc.). This doesn't tackle the issue of Broly VS Bojack, however, as not only has Koyama made it apparent he always treats Broly as an exception (as well as you ignoring the context that he made the "each villain Goku fights is stronger than the last" statement when talking about his creation of Broly and immediately followed by him saying he couldn't come up with someone stronger until after Movie 11 at the earliest), but the Hatchiyack OVA debunks your idea of how that Broly would fare worse against the Cell Games Saiyans than the ones he beat.
Bio-Broly seems to be the only exception to the rule of new movie villains being stronger than the last. But is Bio-Broly really weaker than Movie 10 Broly, or did Goten and Trunks get Toei-boosted?
was even weaker than Movie 8 Broly and that Goten and Trunks were just portrayed at the level of their manga selves.
