Boohan vs Pure Boo

[Cirno777]

Probably the most polarising argument in DB fandom. Thoughts?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I like to revisit this every once in a while, but I always fail to see how Pure Boo could be stronger.

The whole point of the journey inside Super Boo was to find a way to nerf him. Then Boo even gets stronger and suddenly they're alright with fighting him? Some say Goku and Vegeta underestimated him, but when did that happen? The whole time Goku says he can kill Boo if he gathers his Ki, the problem is that SSJ3 is too draining for him. Some say Goku and Vegeta got stronger, but there's no room for that to happen. They see Boo and begin to make fun of him. Besides, they were no longer experiencing Zenkais by that part of the series.

 

[Cirno777]

I like to revisit this every once in a while, but I always fail to see how Pure Boo could be stronger.

The whole point of the journey inside Super Boo was to find a way to nerf him. Then Boo even gets stronger and suddenly they're alright with fighting him? Some say Goku and Vegeta underestimated him, but when did that happen? The whole time Goku says he can kill Boo if he gathers his Ki, the problem is that SSJ3 is too draining for him. Some say Goku and Vegeta got stronger, but there's no room for that to happen. They see Boo and begin to make fun of him. Besides, they were no longer experiencing Zenkais by that part of the series.

I agree, pretty much. It makes 0 sense within the story. The only reason this is considered a debate is because of scans like this:

Spoiler

And a Toriyama interview:

Spoiler

1. Bad sources. Seriously, the funimation flavour text on the back of a cd case isn't more reliable than a source like the Daizenshuu, which has this:

Spoiler

So Bootenks > All Boo's from the past (Pure Boo).

Or EML with this:

Spoiler

2. Taking Toriyama's words far too literally. All he's sayin is that he subverts the big strongman trope with his characters a lot.

The only scan I've seen that actually some merit is this one (because it's actually from a valid source):

Spoiler

This is the only reason I have any doubt on Boohan > Pure Boo, it says Pure Boo is Goku's fellow strongest. Honestly not sure how you'd argue against it.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It's actually a versus that is too complicated to define, some takes into account Buu's word about him being the strongest Majin ever in history, but that's just in reference to Fat Buu and Super Buu, as he doesn't remember his past quite well as he thought Bibidi was his creator while actually he exists since immemorial time.

We have as a reference, Goku thinking Gotenks and Gohan could fight Kid Buu and that Gohan's genki is useless to kill Kid Buu, so Goku could have never actually killed Kid Buu. But, for the versus, I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest the superiority of any of them.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I like to revisit this every once in a while, but I always fail to see how Pure Boo could be stronger.

The whole point of the journey inside Super Boo was to find a way to nerf him. Then Boo even gets stronger and suddenly they're alright with fighting him? Some say Goku and Vegeta underestimated him, but when did that happen? The whole time Goku says he can kill Boo if he gathers his Ki, the problem is that SSJ3 is too draining for him. Some say Goku and Vegeta got stronger, but there's no room for that to happen. They see Boo and begin to make fun of him. Besides, they were no longer experiencing Zenkais by that part of the series.

Vegeta literally stated that Buu was stronger than what he imagined.

Spoiler

Goku was reconsidering his choices after fighting him for a while.

Spoiler

I fail to see how Goku's plan could have actually worked if his drain is even greater in a living body, if his power is enough, his drain is the card of the perdition plus Kid Buu's insane regeneration.

 

[Cirno777]

It's actually a versus that is too complicated to define, some takes into account Buu's word about him being the strongest Majin ever in history, but that's just in reference to Fat Buu and Super Buu, as he doesn't remember his past quite well as he thought Bibidi was his creator while actually he exists since immemorial time.

To be fair, Boo existing since time immemorial was a retcon. It's also just flat out stated in the Daizenshuu that Bootenks was the birth of the mighty-est Majin Boo.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

To be fair, Boo existing since time immemorial was a retcon. It's also just flat out stated in the Daizenshuu that Bootenks was the birth of the mighty-est Majin Boo.

New information precedes what was said in the manga, that's why Potara in Super is no longer eternal and that rule only applies to Kaioshins.

The statement doesn't work if Buu is talking about Kid & Buff Buu considering that he declared himself as the strongest until Gohan appeared, which is pretty much impossible considering that Buff Buu was directly stated to be stronger than Super Buu, unless he also doesn't remember his past strength.

Spoiler

Also, I'm just offering the context of the statement, not that I agree entirely.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I agree, pretty much. It makes 0 sense within the story. The only reason this is considered a debate is because of scans like this:

Spoiler

undefined

For me the only argument mostly the anime dialogue, because it's something directly told to the audience as they watch the series, even if it's all filler.

In the Toriyama interview, it's the interviewer that says Kid Boo is Boo's strongest form, not Toriyama himself. I don't think Toriyama not correcting the guy means anything besides him not caring about this debate. Kid Boo still fits this trope anyway since he's small, but the most "dangerous".

Vegeta literally stated that Buu was stronger than what he imagined.

Spoiler

View attachment 2228

Goku was reconsidering his choices after fighting him for a while.

Spoiler

View attachment 2229

I fail to see how Goku's plan could have actually worked if his drain is even greater in a living body, if his power is enough, his drain is the card of the perdition plus Kid Buu's insane regeneration.

And that so was Goku. He probably expected them to be Fat Boo level, instead of SSJ2 Gohan level.

At first, Goku thought Boo's regeneration and infinite stamina was the only issue. He complains Boo's power never falling, then Vegeta tells Goku to stop holding back and Goku says "I'm not holding back, I just need a minute to focus!" and that's where the panel you posted enters. Goku then spends a couple chapters trying to charge up his Ki and failing as everyone else fights Boo, but it's only after he reverts to Base that he notices SSJ3 has too much strain.

Spoiler

 

[Cirno777]

New information precedes what was said in the manga, that's why Potara in Super is no longer eternal and that rule only applies to Kaioshins.

The statement doesn't work if Buu is talking about Kid & Buff Buu considering that he declared himself as the strongest until Gohan appeared, which is pretty much impossible considering that Buff Buu was directly stated to be stronger than Super Buu, unless he also doesn't remember his past strength.

Every incarnation of the evil side of Boo is the same person, so when he refers to himself being the strongest, he means himself currently. I think?

Spoiler

View attachment 2231

Also, I'm just offering the context of the statement, not that I agree entirely.

What I mean is the Daizenshuu statement that states Bootenks as the strongest born Majin.

Spoiler

What you said about the actual statement within the manga from Bootenks is definitely valid, but the Daizenshuu actually solidifies it.

 

[Cirno777]

For me the only argument mostly the anime dialogue, because it's something directly told to the audience as they watch the series, even if it's all filler.

Well, that has it's own issues, particularly regarding Koyama's statements on twitter:

Spoiler

In the Toriyama interview, it's the interviewer that says Kid Boo is Boo's strongest form, not Toriyama himself. I don't think Toriyama not correcting the guy means anything besides him not caring about this debate. Kid Boo still fits this trope anyway since he's small, but the most "dangerous".

I actually never noticed that was the interviewer saying that lol

 

[Hector]

Probably the most polarising argument in DB fandom. Thoughts?

Anime Buu Saga makes way more sense if we accept that Vegetto's power was split between Vegeta and Goku when they defused.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

Anime Buu Saga makes way more sense if we accept that Vegetto's power was split between Vegeta and Goku when they defused.

Holy shirt

This... Makes... Sense.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Cirno777

Kid Buu & Buff Buu are indeed the same person, Fat Buu was likely a new person as he doesn't remember who created him.

Thing is the statement about Gotenks Buu being the strongest Majin is just in reference to the Buus that we (and Gohan) have seen, in the same context, he declares that he was the strongest until Gohan appeared as if Gohan was the only one stronger than him. So, he either doesn't know Buff/Kid Buu's strength or doesn't remember it well.

In Buu's mind the only one stronger than him was Gohan, and he is talking from the time things occured on Earth.

Didn't that same guidebook describes Kid Buu as Goku's strongest foe?

@GreatSaiyaman123

Kid Buu is described by Shin and the guidebooks into being the same Buu until he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, so both Kid & Buff are equally dangerous. His fericiousness and power were somewhat weakened due to the fault of Dai Kaioshin.

Regardless, the main point is that the idea of Goku actually managing to kill Kid Buu if he launches a fully charged blast is questionable due to the fact that the strain of the form being an higher issue in a living body. Actual facts tell us that Gohan's genki is useless against Kid Buu, so Goku could have never killed Buu.

 

[Omhig]

In the anime Kid Buu stomps.
In the manga Buuhan stomps.

 

[Cirno777]

@Cirno777

Kid Buu & Buff Buu are indeed the same person, Fat Buu was likely a new person as he doesn't remember who created him.

Evil Boo also refers to being promised a fight, which is obviously when Goku promised *Fat* Boo that a stronger warrior than him would emerge soon. Evil Boo = Fat Boo.

Thing is the statement about Gotenks Buu being the strongest Majin is just in reference to the Buus that we (and Gohan) have seen, in the same context, he declares that he was the strongest until Gohan appeared as if Gohan was the only one stronger than him.

He was lol.

So, he either doesn't know Buff/Kid Buu's strength or doesn't remember it well.

I disagree, he states it's the strongest he's ever been, & he has been Kid Boo/Hench Boo.

In Buu's mind the only one stronger than him was Gohan, and he is talking from the time things occured on Earth.

I don't think that's provable.

Didn't that same guidebook describes Kid Buu as Goku's strongest foe?

Yeah, in this scan I posted earlier:



I'm not quite 100% decided on Boohan > Pure Boo, this scan is the reason why.

 

[Cirno777]

Anime Buu Saga makes way more sense if we accept that Vegetto's power was split between Vegeta and Goku when they defused.

It's a classic fan theory lmao

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Evil Boo also refers to being promised a fight, which is obviously when Goku promised *Fat* Boo that a stronger warrior than him would emerge soon. Evil Boo = Fat Boo.

Obviously, Super Buu remembers everything of Fat Buu because he was the evil side of him, and of top of that, all of those were recent events (Gotenks, Gohan, Goku & Vegeta).

He was lol.

Buff Buu wasn't stronger than Super Buu?

I disagree, he states it's the strongest he's ever been, & he has been Kid Boo/Hench Boo.

It's obvious that he is just refering to things happened on Earth and not new information other than him being stronger than Fat Buu or Super Buu is plausible with that statement. Your problem is taking everything Buu says as something absolute.

And still has the mind of Bibidi being his creator, so he doesn't remember everything about his past quite well.

I don't think that's provable.

Buu literally says that he was the strongest until Gohan appeared, which we know that is not the case because Buff Buu was at least stronger than him, so the statement doesn't work if he's talking about his life as a whole (if he remembers it).

 

[Diamond Ryan]

There are a few statements which suggest that even base Super Boo is superior to SSj3 Goku, who is a peer to Pure Boo. Such as:

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P2.3-4
Boo: “Far, far, waa~~aay far away, I felt a strong power…I won’t allow anyone to have a power stronger than mine…”

Super Boo has Fat Boo's memories and remembers his fight with SSj3 Goku, yet only shows concern about being surpassed once he senses Gohan's power. Not to mention this statement:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

And even if you want to argue that Goku didn't want to hurt Vegeta's pride by using SSj3, Boo himself shows complete confidence in taking on both Vegeta and Goku even while knowing about Goku's SSj3:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”

Now I suppose you could argue that Pure Boo was holding back against Goku and his true power is greater than Super Boo's, but Goku being able to wipe out Pure Boo with a minute of charge time is never outright contradicted, and thus it's debatable whether or not a full power Pure Boo would really be able to fight against Super Boo. At the very least, Super Boo > SSj3 Goku should be pretty set in stone, and thus the answer to the question in this thread comes down to whether or not you consider SSj3 Goku to actually be on par with Pure Boo or not.

 

[SSJ2]

There are a few statements which suggest that even base Super Boo is superior to SSj3 Goku, who is a peer to Pure Boo. Such as:

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P2.3-4
Boo: “Far, far, waa~~aay far away, I felt a strong power…I won’t allow anyone to have a power stronger than mine…”

Super Boo has Fat Boo's memories and remembers his fight with SSj3 Goku, yet only shows concern about being surpassed once he senses Gohan's power. Not to mention this statement:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

And even if you want to argue that Goku didn't want to hurt Vegeta's pride by using SSj3, Boo himself shows complete confidence in taking on both Vegeta and Goku even while knowing about Goku's SSj3:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”

Now I suppose you could argue that Pure Boo was holding back against Goku and his true power is greater than Super Boo's, but Goku being able to wipe out Pure Boo with a minute of charge time is never outright contradicted, and thus it's debatable whether or not a full power Pure Boo would really be able to fight against Super Boo. At the very least, Super Boo > SSj3 Goku should be pretty set in stone, and thus the answer to the question in this thread comes down to whether or not you consider SSj3 Goku to actually be on par with Pure Boo or not.

Don’t forget that Oob > Moro or some shit.

Spoiler

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Don’t forget that Oob > Moro or some shit.

Spoiler

We don't talk about DBS