BoZ Weighted Goku > Kami?

[ChulpaBatman]

Kami gets obliterated. He could not even keep up with the speed of Goku and Piccolo in the 23rd. Goku states he has been training hard and should have definitely increased his power. Anyway the following is my list.

BoZ Unweighted Goku: 4,160
Piccolo Full Power: 4,075
BoZ Weighted Goku: 3,000
23rd TB Goku(Full Power): 2,500
23rd TB Piccolo(Full Power): 2,425
Kami: 1,625
23rd Goku(unweighted): 1,200
BoZ Tenshinhan: 1,200
23rd Goku(weighted): 880
Tenshinhan: 880
King Piccolo: 710
Krillin: 705
Yamcha(WFF): 625
Cyborg Tao: 545
Chazou: 380
King Piccolo Old: 355

 

[Kyo]

whys this 3 pages long

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Alternate Trunks
-base: 5 (scouter reading)
-SSJ: 250

Weighted Goku: 322 (scouter reading)

BOZ Weighted Goku>SSJ Alternate Trunks
FACT

 

[p123]

Due to scouter numbers, people often nerf this estimated gain. There's no reason for it to be nerfed so greatly.

The best way to determine this is to give Piccolo and Goku significant gains, they have been training for five years.

If you want, you can have their gains at a significantly higher rate than the humans and be totally acceptable.

We still would like to have Tien under Popo of course, but he can be somewhat close, hell, why can't Tien be just as strong, if not a bit stronger? Tien is a beast and keeping Tien under Kami should be easy, there is a wide gap between Popo and Kami.

I don't care to throw numbers out right now, but I'm sure ahill or withheld can slap something together. I think there were respectable gains during the 5 years, it doesn't have to be tremendous, but it can be a lot larger than we think. As with anything in DBZ, the larger the better, usually more accurate too.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

BOZ Tien- 250
Popo- 270
Kami- 300
23rd TB Goku/Piccolo- 500
BOZ Goku/Piccolo- 750

 

[ahill1]

Due to scouter numbers, people often nerf this estimated gain. There's no reason for it to be nerfed so greatly.

Yeah, according to the scouter numbers there's not a PRETTY WIDE gap between Goku/Piccolo and the rest of the Z senshi. I'd also like to have weighted Goku/Piccolo (BoZ) > 23rd Budokai Goku/Piccolo, but that would mean 23rd Budokai Goku would be less than 322, making the chain of 322 > 23rd Goku > Kami > Tenshinhan (250) pretty hard.

I'm a bit on the fence about completely ignoring the scouters' numbers. I mean, we would be going against what AT clearly showed to us in the manga, no?

The scouter numbers are also pretty important to dictate who is stronger than who. I mean, would you be able to tell Captain Ginyu > post Gravity train base Goku if there weren't scouter numbers for them?

If you want, you can have their gains at a significantly higher rate than the humans and be totally acceptable.

Piccolo and Goku's gains being significantly higher than the humans' is the right way. Goku and Picc's motivations are way bigger, with the former taking the title of "protector of the Earth" by himself and the latter wanting to restaure his reign of terror, although with not the same intensity as his father.

Their method of training (wearing weight clothes) begets wider gains too.

I'd give the humans a 1.2x ~ 1.25x increase and call it a day.

We still would like to have Tien under Popo of course, but he can be somewhat close, hell, why can't Tien be just as strong, if not a bit stronger?

I generally have Popo at the level unweighted Goku used to tool Tenshinhan, which is 1.5x higher than this latter, imo. While 23rd Tenshinhan was a lot faster and stronger than post Water Goku and king Piccolo, I don't feel the gap is as wide as Popo's over Goku.

It's also better to keep Ten < Popo considering Ten would still train under Popo's tutel, just like Piccolo still asking Kaio-sama to train him would suggest his inferiority.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

There is no real proof of BOZ Weighted> 23rd FP

 

[p123]

Scouters are stupid, you take from them and that's it.

Piccolo is stupidly stronger than the rest of them at the 23rd Budokai. This should be a multi fold gap imo. Tien is a shitbag compared to Piccolo. Damn, this got me pretty motivated to do a list for the entire Piccolo Daimao saga. I'll start a thread.

Withheld, it's a theory, and a sound one. No one can counter it.

Also, ahill, we take what we can from the scouters and discard the other shit. AT can't remember his ass from his asshole.

 

[sei'taer]

At the 23rd Budokai, weighted Goku was way weaker than Kami, as the former was being outclassed by Tenshinhan. It somehow changed at the beginning of Z, where weighted Goku surpassed Tenshinhan by a lot, by whatever reason.

I'm fine with BoZ weighted Goku > Kami, but can Raditz read Kami at his temple?

Why wouldn't it make sense that goku would increase the gap between him and tenshinhan in the five years. He's increased the gap everytime after they fought at the 22nd.

 

[ahill1]

Why wouldn't it make sense that goku would increase the gap between him and tenshinhan in the five years. He's increased the gap everytime after they fought at the 22nd.

Eh, it might make sense. At the 23rd Budokai weighted Goku and Tenshinhan were rough in strength and Ten was considerably faster. I just think a bit strange to see weighted Goku >> Tenshinhan at the BoZ, but it can easily be said Goku evolved more. I just find strange the tiny gap Goku gets by taking off his weights. At the 23rd Budokai it was a monstruous gap, easily 2x+ and yet at the BoZ it was a mere 1.25x one.


@p123 - Your point about weighted BoZ > 23rd full power is pretty solid, but weighted Goku would have to get way, way, way stronger, right? Look at the chain:

BoZ Weighted Goku > Goku 23rd Budokai > Goku 23rd (warming up) > Goku 23rd (ten's estimations) > Goku 23rd (tooling ten) > Ten 23rd ~ 23rd Goku weighted

What boost would you use to the weights at the beginning of Z. I don't see your point about the boost being diiminished only because Goku got stronger. Piccolo, after fusing with Nail, went from being easily beaten by full power 2nd form Freeza to being capable of defeating him, which sounds about right with a 1.25x boost.

 

[p123]

Your problem is that you keep assuming the weighted boost should be the same. It's nowhere close. Throw that out, what you should be thinking about is theories on why it's nowhere close.

Give me a three potential theories on why.

 

[ahill1]

That's the problem, there's no valid reason it wouldn't be the same, unless you go with the scouter numbers, which you are totally against.

 

[p123]

Well factually they are definitely not the same. In the story, it's shown to be nowhere as big of a boost as last time. Goku was able to scale many walls from removing the weights unlike against Raditz.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

The only workable theory is inconsistentency from Toriyama sadly

 

[p123]

WRONG

 

[Kyo]

if I'm weak then carrying weights will hinder me more than if I were strong

it's not that hard

 

[p123]

Yup

 

[ahill1]

Or the clothes' weight also got higher? :|

I gave Piccolo as an example, whereas even after fusing with Nail and getting literally 100x+ stronger, still could get a substantial power up taking off the weights.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

The only workable theory is inconsistentency from Toriyama sadly

 

[Kyo]

How substantial was it, really? He went from rivaling 17 to rivaling 17. Lol. Heavier weights or not the boost at Saiyan Saga is still way lower anyway (though I'm not 100% sure what's being argued exactly tbh).