Can Mr. Boo (the one who fought kid) be = Fat Boo?

[Papasmurf]

@Papasmurf


Super Boo held a 2x advantage there, like you said. Vegeta didn't hold even that much of an advantage vs Semi Cell and was still confident in taking a transformed Cell. Is that arrogance? Well, it'd be but not an absurd moronic one, as they at least have the basics that they are stronger than the previous enemy/form they faced.

Here it'd be different since had Boo seen Goku as > him, he'd know he wouldn't stand a chance, since here in this case, he wouldn't be excited to fight an enemy even beyond his reach. He was shown smart enough acknowledging Kid Boo was above him when the fight still hadn't even delved into an one sided one. So that would work better, since Goku was definitely above fat Boo, with that battle not representing a Goku who would theoretically go all out.

Boo's already seen Fusion cause Goten and Trunks' powers to skyrocket and was convinced a Fusion of two stronger people wouldn't match him when he's maybe double Gotenks' power at best. It's pure arrogance. The fact that Boo even had to fight Kid Boo to realize he can't win shows that he is arrogant in his power, when a different (and weaker) incarnation of the Evil version of Boo stomped him before.

Besides, Freeza had his pride hurt... It's different when it comes to villains who deny that in a frustrated way, in a way we can see they are making their best not to believe that situation can be true... Whereas fat Boo hadn't his pride hurt and was having fun even projecting a fight against a hypothetical stronger enemy. Super Boo quickly acknowledged Gohan was above him and acknowledged such possibility as far back as he sensed Gohan for the first time... And Bootenks still didn't want to take the risk with a Goku and Gohan fusion, hence why he said "why take the chance" and rushed to kill Goku. He didn't scream arrogance at anytime except when having his pride hurt by Vegetto and, again, showing those denials traits.

Super Boo still prefaced his caution with "undoubtedly futile" and thought a Goku-Vegeta fusion would be trash to him. It's arrogance of the highest order, especially when a chapter ago Old Kai said the only reason Fusion is useless against Boo is because he wouldn't wait for them to perform the dance, even before he pointed out the Potara boasts greater effects.

There is no way to quantify how big the gap was between suppressed Perfect Cell and Vegeta. It was just big enough that Cell performed a better tanking feat than what Vegeta could vs #19. The SEG hadn't any multipliers for SSJg3 as far as I know, and the only official multiplier from an official magazine made by Shueisha with any saying on its multiplier is EML who took it all the way up to 10x.

EML is garbage that isn't even produced in Japan. If SSJg3 was an even greater boost than SSJ2 is over MSSJ, that'd have been noted even if the form isn't efficient overall. And the overall narrative that sets SSJ2 on a pedestal over the Grade forms as the true surpassing of the SSJ and SPC being a power Cell never touched before (despite turning buff literally a minute before exploding) tells me G3 isn't that big of a boost.

Freeza was still very suppressed there. Suppression can sometimes affect how characters take attacks from opponents = them when warming up and in a state far from their full power. For example, Goku didn't even react in pain from warming up Cell's attacks despite Cell being = him there, yet the more powered up Cell's attacks, despite being still somewhat close to Goku, had obviously way bigger effects, not just an effect expected from the power gap that may have opened up when they both powered up. Plus, Goku also took all of Piccolo Junior's blasts while both were warming up and took no damage at all... Which couldn't be seen when both were fighting at their fullest and an off guard antennae laser from Piccolo would already make Goku pause in pain, or rather, any non-prepared-to-get attack.

Freeza visibly took damage even from Gohan's assault on his initial 2nd form power. Suppression definitely makes durability plummet. By your logic, 50% Freeza shouldn't have been in pain because his true power is over double that of Goku's KKx20, yet he still screamed it hurt a lot. Plus, Goku was fired up to kill Freeza due to Vegeta's speech here, while in the other situations they were simply testing each other and Piccolo even said that shouldn't hurt Goku after he pretended to be down.

Yes, he was holding back, though the point was that even when holding back, Goku can find a match to be fun, which was in response to you posting about Goku arguing matches aren't fun unless the opponents aren't well matched... Which shows that there are specific contexts in which Goku can find battles fun. Hell, Cell was the one saying how the fight was fun and he was holding back a lot. They can certainly find battle fun when holding back to a far from FP but still considerable, let's say considerable in perspective of holding back a shit ton, level...

And there's no Goku fanboyism here. I have pre RoSaT SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku and never made a point to have Goku stronger or anything. Heck, as long as people have Goku way behind Gotenks it wouldn't even be fanboyism because in the end, even if ppl have him as much as 20% of SSJ3 Gotenks' power (not my case) he'd be getting pummeled heavily all the same.

Plus, like I said, it's not like Goku knew fat Boo lost more than half of his power when releasing Grey Boo, as Vegeta explained it to him in a rather general summed up way without going into specifics while they were inside Super Boo... And yet he noticed no difference in how fat Boo should be performing vs kid, making note of how he isn't performing even at half of what he should be able to... Something that would be rather glarring not to make any note of.

I've no Goku agenda here.

I'm not accusing YOU of Goku fanboyism, I am just pointing out that in many cases where people argue for a big or even multi-fold gap between Goku and Fat Boo it's due to Goku fanboyism (and I see that a LOT). And I have a hunch it's due to Goku being portrayed as superior to Super Boo in later episodes of the anime which people grew up with, so even after seeing the proper power chain of the manga people find excuses to put Goku on a pedestal. My apologies if it sounded like I was putting you in the same level as them.

 

[SSJ2]

Well, ok, but the way Piccolo said that leaves also margin for it to be a classic holding back, not fighting Boo at his fullest, imo.

Besides, rereading the fight again, it happened incredibly quickly. Goku appeared behind Boo and punched him to the sea. Boo got out and fired Vegeta's signature blasts, which had Goku surprised at him learning quickly and deflecting all his blasts. Then Boo punched Goku stretching his arm and it hadn't any effect on Goku, not even a bleed lip.

Then in the next chapter, Goku punched Boo, who responded punching him as hard, and then Goku used a KMHMH creating a hole in Boo's body, who regenerated and fired his own KMHMH at Goku, which surprised Goku, made him deflect it at Boo, who then deflected it at the Earth. Then it concluded their quick battle. Boo thought it was fun and wanted more... In VIZ, Goku stated he couldn't "play with Boo for more time". Play may be indicative of Goku holding back, or it could be in relation to the fight being fun (more likely the latter, but it's still interesting).

Once thing I noticed is that once Goku quickly fired a KMHMH at kid Boo, it disintegrated all of his body, who then quickly regenerated from the small parts. It happened twice, also when Goku replied back Kid Boo's KMHMH with his own, saying the technique is his. So if Goku could already almost entirely disintegrate Kid Boo's whole body with a quick fired KMHMH... Yet could only create a big hole into fat Boo's belly, it tells me Goku simply did fire a way weaker KMHMH aimed at fat Boo, otherwise it'd make no sense for it to have a bigger effect on kid Boo. So I'd say this also lends credence to the idea Goku was pulling back his attacks vs Fat Boo, unlike Kid Boo when fighting Mr. Boo, who although didn't want to outright kill him, still used more force into his attacks like rushing through his head and taking fat Boo's head and shoulders. Also, since Vegeta stated that Boo can get hurt when fighting another Boo, and as such, his power was getting lower when it's Boo vs Boo, it's plausible that fat Boo could sense more of a toll on his energy from taking Kid Boo's attacks, even when his power hadn't still fallen noticeably, than when fighting SSJ3 Goku, which can also add to why Mr. Boo got to the conclusion he could not win more quickly vs Kid Boo. The first portion of their fight (Mr. Boo vs Kid Boo) wasn't entirely one sided and reminded the Goku's one in which both Boo's punched each other and landed their attacks, though fat Boo seemed to feel the weight behind the attacks more and such appeared to be the same for Kid Boo, given his expression of strain and discomfort when being punched... Which can be due to their nature of taking damage when fighting one of their kind.

Here’s the thing about the KHH comparison. It was already established that Goku wasn’t trying to kill Fat Boo, whereas he was trying to kill Pure Boo. Holding back on the KHH is reasonable. Why would Goku pull his punches against an opponent who is invincible to physical damage? Goku realized right away that Boo wasn’t damaged from his attacks, it’s hard to rationalize that he would be making his attacks weaker from that point. Not to mention, would Goku really be considering it fun if he wasn't even trying?

 

[ahill1]

@Papasmurf

Boo's already seen Fusion cause Goten and Trunks' powers to skyrocket and was convinced a Fusion of two stronger people wouldn't match him when he's maybe double Gotenks' power at best. It's pure arrogance. The fact that Boo even had to fight Kid Boo to realize he can't win shows that he is arrogant in his power, when a different (and weaker) incarnation of the Evil version of Boo stomped him before.

He only said that in regards to a fusion between Goku and Vegeta (who he only recognized the power btw), so them scaling below Boo makes sense if scaling the adults off Goten and Trunks... Except Boo didn't know about the Potara, which as far as the manga went, was treated as the differential. Boo wasn't excited to fight a hypothetical Goku and Gohan fusion, that's the difference.

Super Boo still prefaced his caution with "undoubtedly futile" and thought a Goku-Vegeta fusion would be trash to him. It's arrogance of the highest order, especially when a chapter ago Old Kai said the only reason Fusion is useless against Boo is because he wouldn't wait for them to perform the dance, even before he pointed out the Potara boasts greater effects.

Addressed above.

EML is garbage that isn't even produced in Japan. If SSJg3 was an even greater boost than SSJ2 is over MSSJ, that'd have been noted even if the form isn't efficient overall. And the overall narrative that sets SSJ2 on a pedestal over the Grade forms as the true surpassing of the SSJ and SPC being a power Cell never touched before (despite turning buff literally a minute before exploding) tells me G3 isn't that big of a boost.

EML was produced by Shueisha and featured many of Toriyama's interviews. The staff involved in it isn't less tied to it than what worked on V-Jump or Weekly Jump for all we know. Plus, that's the only official guide we have saying anything about a grade 3 multiplier... Ever. Anything speculating about whether it wouldn't have a higher multiplier than SSJ2 is not that relevant because the form is useless btw. The raw power it already rendered it useless long before SSJ2 was introduced.

Freeza visibly took damage even from Gohan's assault on his initial 2nd form power. Suppression definitely makes durability plummet. By your logic, 50% Freeza shouldn't have been in pain because his true power is over double that of Goku's KKx20, yet he still screamed it hurt a lot. Plus, Goku was fired up to kill Freeza due to Vegeta's speech here, while in the other situations they were simply testing each other and Piccolo even said that shouldn't hurt Goku after he pretended to be down.

The examples you listed didn't show any damage, that is it. It didn't have Freeza tanking Goku's kick. It'd be relevant if you brought a scenario in which a character received someone's punch in the face in the same situation as Goku vs fat Boo or Vegeta vs 19, or #16 vs Semi Cell, Vegeta vs Perfect Cell... Those are all situations that have a similarity among each other because the opponent allows the punch to happen and react towards it. For example, Vegeta didn't outright tank Semi Cell's punch, when in grade 2, such being tanked worse than him vs 19, but we can make comparisons and inferences of his superiority being less pronounceable than whatever superiority suppressed Cell had over Super Vegeta because under similar circumstances, in similar scenarios, the tanking gap was superior. It's not solely about how hurt the fighter is, it's the set up and the circumstance in which the tank occurs.

I'm not accusing YOU of Goku fanboyism, I am just pointing out that in many cases where people argue for a big or even multi-fold gap between Goku and Fat Boo it's due to Goku fanboyism (and I see that a LOT). And I have a hunch it's due to Goku being portrayed as superior to Super Boo in later episodes of the anime which people grew up with, so even after seeing the proper power chain of the manga people find excuses to put Goku on a pedestal. My apologies if it sounded like I was putting you in the same level as them.

It's alright.

The last point still stands though, that Goku failed to notice Mr. Boo performing less than half of what fat Boo could do...


@SSJ2

Well, as you said, he could only in fact damage and destroy Boo with chi blasts. If Goku held back his KMHMH, when he could already disintegrate most of Kid Boo's body with it, then fat Boo could have easily reached the conclusion, even if he didn't die, that he could not defeat Goku if Goku put real pressure into the attack. Kid Boo may have easily been putting more pressure and power when rushing into fat Boo's head, for example. And the additional pressure of taking damage when fighting another Boo, perhaps, helping to make the realization more obvious to Mr. Boo.

 

[Dagon]

Buu became pure when Mr. Buu was removed. Therefore all Kaioshin influence went to Mr. Buu. Fat Buu = Mr. Buu is fine.

 

[SSJ2]

The last point still stands though, that Goku failed to notice Mr. Boo performing less than half of what fat Boo could do...

The obvious out of universe answer is that Toriyama forgot that Goku wasn't around when Good Boo was formed.

I've reread the entire segment, and I'm lead to more inconsistency.

1. Pure Evil Boo beats down Good Boo almost immediately. This may lend support to the idea that Mr Boo = Fat Boo given that he was able to hold out longer against Pure Boo. However, it seems pretty obvious that Pure Evil Boo was fighting to kill, whereas Pure Boo was fighting for sport. Mr Boo is able to land a few hits on Pure Boo whereas Good Boo couldn't land anything on Pure Evil Boo.

2. Pure Boo was literally toying with Mr Boo. He was strong enough to fight Mr Boo with his legs only - which looked exactly the same as SSJ Vegetto (suppressed) vs Gohan Boo. This in itself implies a massive gap between them, one that would be consistent with Mister Boo equaling Good Boo in power. And this happened well before Mr Boo was noticed to have been losing power.

So the situation is pretty contradictory, but I stand by my initial opinion. Pure Evil Boo was serious from the start and went all out to kill Good Boo. Pure Boo was only half serious and was still tooling Mr Boo with his legs only. Good Boo = Mr Boo imo.

 

[ahill1]

I think Mr. Boo being fend off with Kid Boo using his legs only can work with the initial segment of the fight if his chi was constantly getting lower, as Vegeta stated they can get hurt if they fight another Boo. Vegeta likely made note of that in the later part of the fight since it had become more obvious as fat Boo was panting, so I'd argue that's when he paid more attention to it. If they can get hurt when fighting another Boo, it wouldn't make sense for his power to take a dip only when he was totally beaten up, but given the stress of the situation and all the plan Vegeta was elaborating ---- being on his mind mainly while Mr. Boo was fighting ---- it's justifiable as to how he took note of that by then. Interestingly enough, the way EML worded the fight made it appear as if the power loss was a gradual thing.

"An intense battle between two Boos. Fat Boo face up the original one audaciously to protect Mr. Satan. However, the level difference [between them] is clear and little by little, his [Mr. Boo's] strength goes down."