Can someone explain me the origin of Goku's unlimited strength in the manga?

[freezamite]

At this point it's not a surprise that my stance about this series differs a lot from the majority of people in here.
And even if I don't agree with it, I can understand why some people think that Namek SSJ Goku was above Freezer (he wins against 100% Freezer, so if we don't take into account the fact that Freezer was badly injured at that point I can see how someone can reach that conclusion), or why someone could think that Nappa is much weaker than Goku (he is stomped in the first assault, and the 2nd when he is calmed is too short for a lot of people to remember considering that soon after that Vegeta proved to be the strongest of that saga), or why someone could think that 18 is much stronger than Vegeta even when every z-warrior agrees in that Vegeta fought her at her same level.

But Goku's unlimited strength? That I can't understand.
In the manga we are told multiple times that a saiyan reaches a limit which can't be surpassed. It's said by Vegeta in Namek the first time he speaks of the SSJ ("The SSJ is a legendary saiyan that can surpass the limits that no other saiyan, no matter how much gifted he is, can ever surpass") and it's said again in the Androids saga when Vegeta explains how he achieved his SSJ form ("I endured a hellish training until I realised I had reached my limits. Then, because of the rage I had against myself, I awoke the SSJ").

Not only that, but there's not a single feat from a non-born as a SSJ saiyan (Goku, Vegeta or Gohan) increasing his strength in base after that theoretical limit is reached. Yes, Gohan in the Bu saga increases his strength in base through training, but it was justified because he had weakened because of his lack of training, which means that he clearly wasn't at his base state limit there.
Furthermore, the only feats we have regarding how strong a base state saiyan is clearly demonstrate that their strength didn't increase at all past the Namek saga (Goku's 40 tons feat).

Even if what's said about a saiyan limit wasn't enough by itself, we also have no feats proving that claim wrong, and at least one feat that I know that proves it to be true. So, where the hell comes the idea that Goku's strength in base didn't stop to increase ever? Is it from the anime? And if it's from the anime, why is such an absurd claim used in most power-scaling lists? That would be like saying that base Goku was above Super Perfect Cell because Pikkon defeated Cell with a single kick and Goku fought that Pikkon for a while in his base state!

The only thing I could think of is KaioShin's statement about him being able to beat Freezer and then being scared of Pui Pui, but considering that Pui Pui thought a 10G gravity would be a decisive factor in his fight and how easily he was defeated it's obvious that:
1. KaiohShin lied about his strength only to make Bu seem more terrible (in the same way Future Trunks lied about the Future Androids being that terrible).
2. Toriyama retconned his strength like he did with Gohan at that same point in the series (considering KaiohShin was feared by even Goku or Piccolo and that he managed to block Gohan's SSJ2 power I'm sure that this is what happened).

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Potential is decided by the plot. Zombies.

 

[freezamite]

Potential is decided by the plot. Zombies.

You mean that same plot that states that the saiyans have a limit that can't be surpassed?
Well, if that's the case, there's no reason to think that Goku continued to improve past that limit, don't you think?

I want a single feat from a saiyan that has reached that limit, clearly surpassing it. It shouldn't be difficult if Goku or Vegeta or Gohan had no limits. I mean, I can find dozens of examples of Namek Goku being much stronger than Saiyan saga Goku, or even in the Namek saga, I can easily find examples of Goku or Vegeta getting stronger.
I just want an example of that happening in the Cell or Bu saga...

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Buu saga Goku is stronger than Cell games Goku.
Buu saga goku is perhaps stronger than cell games gohan while cell games goku is much inferior

 

[freezamite]

Buu saga Goku is stronger than Cell games Goku.
Buu saga goku is perhaps stronger than cell games gohan while cell games goku is much inferior

Bu saga Goku was stronger than Cell games Goku because he could achieve higher levels of SSJ. Now can you prove me with feats that his base state was stronger as well?
We know base Goku on the Bu saga has a 40 tons of weight límit, can you prove that this límit was lower on the Cell saga?

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Buu saga Goku is stronger than Cell games Goku.
Buu saga goku is perhaps stronger than cell games gohan while cell games goku is much inferior

Bu saga Goku was stronger than Cell games Goku because he could achieve higher levels of SSJ. Now can you prove me with feats that his base state was stronger as well?
We know base Goku on the Bu saga has a 40 tons of weight límit, can you prove that this límit was lower on the Cell saga?

There are no feats.Nobody fights in base form after Ssj is introduced but its only logical to think that if Ssj forms are stronger,the base form would be stronger too

 

[freezamite]

There are no feats.Nobody fights in base form after Ssj is introduced but its only logical to think that if Ssj forms are stronger,the base form would be stronger too

But this didn't happen when the KK was introduced. Why is it that the introduction of the KK didn't prevent Toriyama from showing how strong base Goku had become, but the SSJ on the other hand did prevent it?
Besides, isn't it a coincidence that the feats/claims showing increases in strength on the base state cease to appear AT THE PRECISE MOMENT where we are told that the base state has a limit?
And how is it that Gohan's base state in the Bu saga, the only one we know that wasn't at his limit because he had weakened due to the lack of training, is shown to increase again when he trains with the z-sword?

The explanation behind the SSJ getting stronger is given in the Cell saga. By being in the SSJ state all the time they adapt to the transformation and erase the stress it produces to the body, which is a concept that was already used with Nappa.
So since we have a proper canon explanation of why the SSJ can increase their strength, why should I ignore that explanation in favour of what seems to be a baseless statement that, to make things worse, contradicts what's stated in the manga at least twice?

I'm starting to think that this "base Goku had no limits" BS is as baseless as I thought it was, probably a consequence of having discovered the series through the anime and not the manga. But if that is the case, why is my absolutely based on the manga claim about the base state limit laughed at? Is it because the Evil Vegeta defence force thinks the manga is something laughable, maybe?

I'm just trying to understand your stance, guys. Honest.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

There are no feats.Nobody fights in base form after Ssj is introduced but its only logical to think that if Ssj forms are stronger,the base form would be stronger too

I'm just trying to understand your stance, guys. Honest.

Ok.This is our stance.Honest.

Your ideas are ridiculous

 

[freezamite]

There are no feats.Nobody fights in base form after Ssj is introduced but its only logical to think that if Ssj forms are stronger,the base form would be stronger too

I'm just trying to understand your stance, guys. Honest.

Ok.This is our stance.Honest.

Your ideas are ridiculous

Yes, I suspected that the manga was laughable to you and the rest of the Evil Vegeta's defence force, so thanks for confirming that.
But think about it for a second, you and your forum allies admit that not only you can't justify your stance using the manga, but that anything based on the manga is "ridiculous".
You should know that, given Toei's pathetic writers, most of the DB fan base thinks that what's laughable is to base one's stance on what's said in the anime, which is full of contradictions.

Now of course you're free to openly contradict the manga in your lists, but at least it's been proved that anything you say regarding DB doesn't take into account what's said in the original work, and in fact, it openly contradicts it.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Potential is decided by the plot. Zombies.

You mean that same plot that states that the saiyans have a limit that can't be surpassed?
Well, if that's the case, there's no reason to think that Goku continued to improve past that limit, don't you think?

I want a single feat from a saiyan that has reached that limit, clearly surpassing it. It shouldn't be difficult if Goku or Vegeta or Gohan had no limits. I mean, I can find dozens of examples of Namek Goku being much stronger than Saiyan saga Goku, or even in the Namek saga, I can easily find examples of Goku or Vegeta getting stronger.
I just want an example of that happening in the Cell or Bu saga...

Sweetie, potential changes every times AT decides to add a new saga to the series. If we took statements about potential literally,
then Goku shouldn't have been able to become stronger after King Piccolo saga. Your theories about Base Saiyans hitting their limit
at Freeza Saga are fun and interesting and i have personally dealt with them, making a list based on those policies, but don't act like
your theories are the one and only undeniable truth. Personally, i'm not annoyed by your attitude and, if the forum was mine, you
wouldn't run any risks, but it's not mine. Quit those college essays, you stated your theories once and that's enough. Zombies.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

The stupid monkey gets stronger whenever he needs to get stronger. I'm still grappling with the idea that he managed to go from 90K to 7M in less than a week.

 

[freezamite]

Sweetie, potential changes every times AT decides to add a new saga to the series. If we took statements about potential literally,
then Goku shouldn't have been able to become stronger after King Piccolo saga. Your theories about Base Saiyans hitting their limit
at Freeza Saga are fun and interesting and i have personally dealt with them, making a list based on those policies, but don't act like
your theories are the one and only undeniable truth. Personally, i'm not annoyed by your attitude and, if the forum was mine, you
wouldn't run any risks, but it's not mine. Quit those college essays, you stated your theories once and that's enough. Zombies.

The thing is that Toriyama said the saiyans had a limit, not only once, but twice, and that there isn't a single feat or statement that contradicts that claim.
Statements shouldn't be taken literally, in fact, feats are more important. But this time, not only there is not a single feat you can provide to demonstrate that Goku, Vegeta or Gohan got even stronger than what was supposed to be their limit, but the only feat we have clearly points towards that limit having been there.

And I opened this thread precisely asking in what are the "Goku's strength is unlimited" theories based. Which feat from the manga shows Goku, Gohan or Vegeta surpassing their limits?

You could say that Toriyama forgot about the base state once the SSJ was designed, but that's not true, because once Gohan's base state drops below the limit because of the lack of training, he surely remembered to show how he got stronger in his base state.

So even if statements shouldn't be taken literally (I'm the first to say that context matters) it's obvious that a statement that's confirmed with feats and not contradicted in any place can't be dismissed either. If not taking every single statement literally is important, to take them into account is pretty important as well. You can't simply ignore what you don't like for no apparent reason, and that's what Kyubiahri is doing here.

The stupid monkey gets stronger whenever he needs to get stronger. I'm still grappling with the idea that he managed to go from 90K to 7M in less than a week.

The stupid monkey wasn't as strong as he made you believe. He used a technique you didn't know even existed to approach your power level, but he was far weaker than Vegeta even!

 

[Cell]

The characters constantly surpass any mentioned limits. Yes, I understand this is not necessarily proof that they surpassed whatever you believe their last limit was... but I am mentioning it because it is shown as a trend throughout the series.

The narrator and Vegeta specifically state that Goku has surpassed "Saiyan" limits post-100xG training... a level of strength the others quickly surpass also.

The Saiyans continue to train in their base forms all the way into the Buu arc. This is especially damning to your point if you believe in fixed multipliers for Super Saiyan forms (not sure if you do or not, just saying).

Goku faces off against Uub in his base form. Goku is expecting a level of power at least above Mr Buu and his expectations are met, if not surpassed.

I suppose I could also mention Goku's initial punch on Android 20/Gero... -shrug-

Post-Namek examples are obviously going to be rare due to the fact that Super Saiyan (and it's followup forms) were the new sources of power and "limits" to be surpassed.

EDIT: Oh yea, Goku vs Yakon is probably worth mentioning also. Pui Pui is a poor example because his strength can be written off so easily due to Kaioshin just freaking out at Babidi recruiting the strongest warriors in the Universe and not actually knowing anything about Pui Pui specifically. But Yakon is someone he recognizes and fears, even though he himself could down Freeza in a single blow... apparently.

 

[Keedounan]

The stupid monkey gets stronger whenever he needs to get stronger. I'm still grappling with the idea that he managed to go from 90K to 7M in less than a week.

Coming from the guy who managed to go from weaker than a Super Saiyan (Namek Period) to stronger than a Super Saiyan Blue in 4 months ?

At least, Goku's PU is somewhat explained by a Zenkai. You literally got stronger by torturing a much weaker "opponent".

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

The stupid monkey gets stronger whenever he needs to get stronger. I'm still grappling with the idea that he managed to go from 90K to 7M in less than a week.

Coming from the guy who managed to go from weaker than a Super Saiyan (Namek Period) to stronger than a Super Saiyan Blue in 4 months ?

At least, Goku's PU is somewhat explained by a Zenkai. You literally got stronger by torturing a much weaker "opponent".

Oh, how cute you're basing it off of the retelling of the events are you. I'll tell you Super Saiyan I trained hard every day to reach the tier of power that I did. And my power is explained, it's my raw potential, if you cannot get this simple fact then I may as well have my men classify Saiyans as intelligent animals.

 

[Keedounan]

The stupid monkey gets stronger whenever he needs to get stronger. I'm still grappling with the idea that he managed to go from 90K to 7M in less than a week.

Coming from the guy who managed to go from weaker than a Super Saiyan (Namek Period) to stronger than a Super Saiyan Blue in 4 months ?

At least, Goku's PU is somewhat explained by a Zenkai. You literally got stronger by torturing a much weaker "opponent".

Oh, how cute you're basing it off of the retelling of the events are you. I'll tell you Super Saiyan I trained hard every day to reach the tier of power that I did. And my power is explained, it's my raw potential, if you cannot get this simple fact then I may as well have my men classify Saiyans as intelligent animals.

1)Trained hard ? Who do you think you're kidding ? Get in the RoSaT, and you'll see what is a REAL training!

2)Yeah, right ! It's quite obvious that it has been done as a convenient excuse to use the most popular villain in the movie. The previous movie was supposed to establish that such a level was almost impossible for mortals to reach by natural means...then they procceed to fuck it up, starting with your training. A born genius, seriously ? Was this all they could come up with as an explanation on why you could get to god-tier ? With such ease at that ?

Unfortunately, what's done is done. So it was part of your potential all along, somehow.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

1)Trained hard ? Who do you think you're kidding ? Get in the RoSaT, and you'll see what is a REAL training!

2)Yeah, right ! It's quite obvious that it has been done as a convenient excuse to use the most popular villain in the movie. The previous movie was supposed to establish that such a level was almost impossible for mortals to reach by natural means...then they procceed to fuck it up, starting with your training. A born genius, seriously ? Was this all they could come up with as an explanation on why you could get to god-tier ? With such ease at that ?

Unfortunately, what's done is done. So it was part of your potential all along, somehow.

1) Oh, how cute, the little Super Saiyan is mad that I surpass his tier of power, in about a day.

2) More like Akira Toriyama realizing his mistakes, and bringing me back. Oh, ho, ho, ho and am I most mortals? I was born with a power-level of over a hundred million. And didn't the monkey, Son Goku increase his powers thousands, and thousands of times greater than when he was born?

 

[Keedounan]

1)Trained hard ? Who do you think you're kidding ? Get in the RoSaT, and you'll see what is a REAL training!

2)Yeah, right ! It's quite obvious that it has been done as a convenient excuse to use the most popular villain in the movie. The previous movie was supposed to establish that such a level was almost impossible for mortals to reach by natural means...then they procceed to fuck it up, starting with your training. A born genius, seriously ? Was this all they could come up with as an explanation on why you could get to god-tier ? With such ease at that ?

Unfortunately, what's done is done. So it was part of your potential all along, somehow.

1) Oh, how cute, the little Super Saiyan is mad that I surpass his tier of power, in about a day.

I'm not role playing. Thank you very much.

2) More like Akira Toriyama realizing his mistakes, and bringing me back.

Considering your arc was the least appreciated in Super, I doubt it.

Oh, ho, ho, ho and am I most mortals? I was born with a power-level of over a hundred million

It doesn't mean much when, Vegeta, who was born with a power much greater than Goku, has been surpassed by the latter more than once. It doesn't mean much when #17 had to put up more effort than you to get to god-tier.

And didn't the monkey, Son Goku increase his powers thousands, and thousands of times greater than when he was born?

Indeed. However, contrary to you, his power increased so much because he has been training and fighting for his whole life. He got that powerful because he made that much effort.

You ? In the anime, you show up, beat up a no-name for four months, and you get to god-tier. In the manga, you actually do some sit-ups, push-ups, and drink a lot of juice...which is still nothing to write home about, really.

I don't intend to derail from this topic any longer, though.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I'm not role playing. Thank you very much.

So, you're not a Super Saiyan?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I'm not rolepaying either. I'm a pop goddess.