Can someone explain me the origin of Goku's unlimited strength in the manga?

[freezamite]

The limit mentioned by Vegeta on Namek was surpassed right there and then. Stated by Vegeta and the narrator: Goku had surpassed Saiyan limits.

No, the limit I'm speaking of is the one when Vegeta says: "a SSJ is a saiyan that can overcome a wall that no other saiyan, no matter how gifted he is, can ever surpass" (or something in those lines).
That's the limit that defines what a SSJ is.

The limit that Vegeta mentions during his Super Saiyan speech could be interpreted as an impossible to surpass in base limit... or as one that was possible to surpass now that he had achieved Super Saiyan... or even simply mental limits. He drove himself mad trying to achieve Super Saiyan... and finally did.

They weren't mental limits because he in fact got the rage boost precisely because he still wanted to become stronger. He specifically speaks of a hellish training and how he realised his limits because of it. Now, if a SSJ can continue to increase his strength in base you should be able to explain me:
1. Why does the zenkay power disappear on the regular saiyans?
2. Why is it that we aren't shown a single scene that demonstrates that those limits were broken, and the feats we see (40 tons Goku feat) precisely point towards that limit still existing?

Not what Toriyama meant to say? I didn't realize you two were so close. You're implying that what was really meant to be said was "What? No way! Kakarot's a 'Super ...for an average but nothing to me because I'm elite and will surpass that level easily... Saiyan!'"

It's not a matter of being close to him, but understanding the context of that sentence. Never in the series it's implied that Goku is a specially gifted saiyan that has a natural strength no other saiyan has. Furthermore, that limit Goku broke in his travel to Namek was also clearly broken by every single alive saiyan in the series in less than a dozen chapters after that limit speach was written.

Check his expressions and sweat. He's training for an upcoming tournament he's hyped for... that doesn't seem like maintenance training to me.

Gohan, Vegeta, Goten and Trunks are all shown pushing themselves in base prior to the tournament also.

Maintenance training when we're speaking of maintaining yourself at your absolute peak is not your regular maintenance training. To maintain yourself at peak condition you have to train much harder than if if this was in the context of "hey I've went from 100 to 80 kg, and now I'm happy with that weight so I'll do a bit of exercise to not gain weight again".

Timline:
- Gohan struggles to pull the sword out as SSJ.
- Gohan requires SSJ to wield sword.
- Gohan wields sword in base.

...seems like a pretty straight forward progression of strength to me.

No one is saying Gohan didn't get stronger. But you've said that his base surpassed his SSJ forms, and that I can't see it.
He struggles to pull the sword out as a SSJ, but pulling out the sword was much, much harder than simply wielding it, so I don't know how you can say that base Gohan ever reached a level that allowed him to pull the sword.
The other scene were we see Gohan in SSJ, we never see him having any problems to wield the sword at all.

So even if it's true that he got stronger (he needed SSJ to wield the sword which wasn't the case later), your point about his base state >>> his pre-z-sword training SSJ form hasn't been proved in my opinion.

He went into the battle intentionally angering a character he believed to be, at the very least, stronger than Mr Buu. Seems a little risky to take a hit from an angry Mr Buu+ character in a terrible low, by comparison, base form.

Goku only started to anger him when he saw how inexperienced Ub was. And yes, it was risky (in fact Ub surpassed Goku's expectations, that's why Goku's arm went completely numb with a single kick from the kid) but it's not as if Goku wanted to face someone at Kid Bu's level in his base state.

You're confusing "control" for "knowledge". Nappa had the knowledge of flight and Ki blasts... but his ability to wield his Ki was disrupted by his emotions. Uub has neither. Uub has no awareness, no knowledge, of Ki and Ki control... thus he cannot fly... and he cannot fire Ki blasts... he lacks the knowledge, thus control is impossible.

I agree, and that's why I say Uub wasn't at Kid Bu levels of strength. He couldn't fly or fire Ki blasts because he lacked the knowledge, but he also could only fight with a fraction of his real strength because he lacked the control over his ki that martial experts have.

As for the SSJ stance; The only difference between Goku's SSJ transformation pre-RoSaT and post-RoSaT is that he loses the uneasy, anxiousness induced, likely brought on by physical stress and primal/rage-induced nature of the SSJ transformation. He literally gets used to it, allowing him to be comfortable and "himself" while transformed. Increased Ki capacity is earned... and Ki control is not mentioned at all.

Well, I'm the one speaking about "ki control". The manga speaks about those aggressive feelings and how they disrupt one's ki and lowers his potential, so you can call this however you prefer.
If you don't like "ki control" let's say "emotion control" for example. The thing is that only true martial experts could have this degree of control and use all their potential as fighters, and Uub totally lacked this.

Also, claiming that "if we adhere to what's said the manga" the base limit could not pass a certain limit... when we're discussing that very topic... seems a little arrogant.

Well, the very definition of a SSJ speaks of that limit that can't be surpassed (it's not only that there's a limit, it's that it specifically say that it can't be surpassed), that's why I said it.
But the thing is, I don't think there's a single feat from a saiyan in base that contradicts this claim.

As mentioned above, it's not about having trouble, it's about requiring it in the first place. Perhaps I poorly worded it with the whole "superior" thing... but the point remains... he struggled to lift it as a Super Saiyan... he required Super Saiyan to weild it... and then he didn't. I don't see how any of that would be contradictory to my point, so I'd appreciate if you could explain that.

Well, your point would be valid if Gohan in base had surpassed his previous SSJ form. Since I'm arguing that the saiyan base state has a limit that can't be surpassed unless he turns into SSJ, him in base proving to be stronger than himself in SSJ before his training would prove your point that Toriyama contradicted himself with this.
But as I see it, what we have is:
Gohan lifts the sword in SSJ putting a lot of effort into it.
Gohan wields the sword in SSJ (without putting an effort, at least that we can see).
Gohan wields the sword in base (without putting an effort).

Now, this proves Gohan got stronger which is something I agree (Gohan got weaker because of the lack of training, which means that he could improve his base state again) but your point revolves around his base being stronger than his SSJ (only in this way you can prove that the base state limit claims were contradicted) and this is not proved by this chain of feats. Lifting the sword was hard to SSJ Gohan, but we can't see base Gohan after the training lifting the sword again, so it can't be proved through there.
And when he wields the sword in SSJ we don't see him having problems to do so, so him being able to do it fairly well in base also doesn't prove his base state broke what was said.

He had seen Gohan's SSJ2 strength... and believed he was the strongest character there (though this may be an anime-only line... I don't have my manga on me at the moment)... while transformed. That last bit is a key point here.

Kaioshin couldn't believe that these characters, in base, were vanquishing "the strongest warriors in the Universe".

The thing is that Kaioshin never says anything about them only being at base. He simply says they're much more powerful than he expected, even when he had already witnessed the power of a SSJ2 and knew that Vegeta was at least "unimpressed" by what Gohan showcased at the tournament.

If he had say what he said in relation to the base state, I don't think it would've been hidden from the reader.

Neither Gohan nor Kaioshin were retconned.
Gohan barely broke into SSJ2 tier (as implied by Vegeta's comments at the tournament), so his strength displayed there, and the strength used against Dabura, actually don't have to be that different.

They were. Gohan lost a transformation. Even if the change was small (he went from low SSJ2 to FPSSJ), he still was retconned to better showcase how weak he had turned (he lost a transformation without any reasonable explanation).
Regarding KaiohShin, he was feared by everyone and he was able to block Gohan's SSJ2 (which means that he could've been able to easily block even Dabra if he wanted), while on the spaceship he was impressed even by the base state feats.
His role in the saga clearly did a 180º turn, from someone important to your usual z-fother.

Kaioshin was never had his strength reduced... he was simply never strong to begin with. What is there to show he's strong? That Piccolo backed down? That's absurd because no one could measure Kaioshin at that point and Piccolo clearly forfeited due to other reasons. Because he can one shot Freeza? Hah. I have some long post about this somewhere... but short version is that, in-Universe anyway, Kaioshin was likely referring to 530k Freeza. Because he held barely SSJ2 Gohan back? Again, not very impressive when Chaozu could do the same to a Goku that was leagues above him. Because he survived Buu? A Buu that was torturing and toying with him? :/

Maybe he meant 530k Freezer, maybe he lied in order to motivate the SSJs... but as I say, it's too many things.
It's him being feared not only by Piccolo but also by Goku (Goku says KaiohShin won't be easy to win, and he had no reason to lie), blocking the SSJ2 and then forgetting he could do this with Dabra and other characters implied to be much lower than a SSJ2 in power, his statement about Freezer and his further reactions...

If we want to give it a canonically valid explanation we could use his "divinity" as an excuse for his very good first impressions, his "mental god powers" to justify how he blocked a SSJ2 or him speaking about Freezer's weakest form or lying like other characters did previously in the series. But that's too many unexplained factors to justify his change, that's why I think that more than a planned evolution of the character what we saw was Toriyama changing his mind about what to do with him for the rest of the saga.

 

[Cell]

The limit mentioned by Vegeta on Namek was surpassed right there and then. Stated by Vegeta and the narrator: Goku had surpassed Saiyan limits.

No, the limit I'm speaking of is the one when Vegeta says: "a SSJ is a saiyan that can overcome a wall that no other saiyan, no matter how gifted he is, can ever surpass" (or something in those lines).
That's the limit that defines what a SSJ is.

I would appreciate the quote and time, if you could provide that.

The limit that Vegeta mentions during his Super Saiyan speech could be interpreted as an impossible to surpass in base limit... or as one that was possible to surpass now that he had achieved Super Saiyan... or even simply mental limits. He drove himself mad trying to achieve Super Saiyan... and finally did.

They weren't mental limits because he in fact got the rage boost precisely because he still wanted to become stronger. He specifically speaks of a hellish training and how he realised his limits because of it. Now, if a SSJ can continue to increase his strength in base you should be able to explain me:
1. Why does the zenkay power disappear on the regular saiyans?
2. Why is it that we aren't shown a single scene that demonstrates that those limits were broken, and the feats we see (40 tons Goku feat) precisely point towards that limit still existing?

1. The Zenkai ability is never noted to disappear or stop functioning. Just because it is no longer highlighted or abused doesn't mean it disappeared. That's like assuming Launch was dead because no one spoke of her again. Until it's stated or shown to no longer exist, it's still a thing... just not something worth mentioning, obviously.

2. That's what we're discussing here. There are scenes that demonstrate such a thing... there's quite a few... but it almost seems like you're letting your view that there's a fixed base limit skew your opinion... and deny any chance at changing that opinion. As for the 40 ton feat, feel free to explain how that cements a base limit existing.

Not what Toriyama meant to say? I didn't realize you two were so close. You're implying that what was really meant to be said was "What? No way! Kakarot's a 'Super ...for an average but nothing to me because I'm elite and will surpass that level easily... Saiyan!'"

It's not a matter of being close to him, but understanding the context of that sentence. Never in the series it's implied that Goku is a specially gifted saiyan that has a natural strength no other saiyan has. Furthermore, that limit Goku broke in his travel to Namek was also clearly broken by every single alive saiyan in the series in less than a dozen chapters after that limit speach was written.

Actually, it's shown pretty clearly, that although Goku may have meager heritage as a "low-class" Saiyan, he has the ability to gain strength and train at greater effectiveness than any other full-blooded Saiyan.

And yes, every other Saiyan in the series breaks through that limit... it's a common thing for limits to be broken casually after first being breached by a single character in Dragon Ball.

Check his expressions and sweat. He's training for an upcoming tournament he's hyped for... that doesn't seem like maintenance training to me.

Gohan, Vegeta, Goten and Trunks are all shown pushing themselves in base prior to the tournament also.

Maintenance training when we're speaking of maintaining yourself at your absolute peak is not your regular maintenance training. To maintain yourself at peak condition you have to train much harder than if if this was in the context of "hey I've went from 100 to 80 kg, and now I'm happy with that weight so I'll do a bit of exercise to not gain weight again".

Except that you need to take the character and the context into consideration. Goku... Mr AlwaysTrainingToGetStronger, is super hyped to compete with his first possible worthy opponents in years... would it really make sense for him to simply be maintaining? As opposed to trying to get as strong as he can before the tournament? I'm not saying he'd make a lot of gains in that time... but he'd still be trying to squeeze what he could out of it.

Timline:
- Gohan struggles to pull the sword out as SSJ.
- Gohan requires SSJ to wield sword.
- Gohan wields sword in base.

...seems like a pretty straight forward progression of strength to me.

No one is saying Gohan didn't get stronger. But you've said that his base surpassed his SSJ forms, and that I can't see it.
He struggles to pull the sword out as a SSJ, but pulling out the sword was much, much harder than simply wielding it, so I don't know how you can say that base Gohan ever reached a level that allowed him to pull the sword.
The other scene were we see Gohan in SSJ, we never see him having any problems to wield the sword at all.

So even if it's true that he got stronger (he needed SSJ to wield the sword which wasn't the case later), your point about his base state >>> his pre-z-sword training SSJ form hasn't been proved in my opinion.

I don't recall saying his base state was >>> his pre-Z-Sword SSJ state...

Look at this demonstration:

Does it seem like his SSJ state could wield it any better than that? He's literally throwing it around and catching it... what more could he have possibly been doing as SSJ?

He went into the battle intentionally angering a character he believed to be, at the very least, stronger than Mr Buu. Seems a little risky to take a hit from an angry Mr Buu+ character in a terrible low, by comparison, base form.

Goku only started to anger him when he saw how inexperienced Ub was. And yes, it was risky (in fact Ub surpassed Goku's expectations, that's why Goku's arm went completely numb with a single kick from the kid) but it's not as if Goku wanted to face someone at Kid Bu's level in his base state.

No, that's exactly what he went into it expecting. He was expecting Kid Buu level strength... or close to it. At the very least he was expecting a level that could defeat Mr Buu. And after seeing Uub's inexperience... he attempted to draw out that level of power with anger.

You're confusing "control" for "knowledge". Nappa had the knowledge of flight and Ki blasts... but his ability to wield his Ki was disrupted by his emotions. Uub has neither. Uub has no awareness, no knowledge, of Ki and Ki control... thus he cannot fly... and he cannot fire Ki blasts... he lacks the knowledge, thus control is impossible.

I agree, and that's why I say Uub wasn't at Kid Bu levels of strength. He couldn't fly or fire Ki blasts because he lacked the knowledge, but he also could only fight with a fraction of his real strength because he lacked the control over his ki that martial experts have.

He lacked the control over his Ki to consciously call upon it... which is what Goku was attempting to force through anger. Goku wouldn't have been very satisfied if he made Uub angry and Uub punched him with the strength of Nappa... Nappa is a HUGE leap above the average human... and would point to Uub have ridiculous potential by being so strong at such a young age, untrained... but that would still be an absolute joke.

As for the SSJ stance; The only difference between Goku's SSJ transformation pre-RoSaT and post-RoSaT is that he loses the uneasy, anxiousness induced, likely brought on by physical stress and primal/rage-induced nature of the SSJ transformation. He literally gets used to it, allowing him to be comfortable and "himself" while transformed. Increased Ki capacity is earned... and Ki control is not mentioned at all.

Well, I'm the one speaking about "ki control". The manga speaks about those aggressive feelings and how they disrupt one's ki and lowers his potential, so you can call this however you prefer.
If you don't like "ki control" let's say "emotion control" for example. The thing is that only true martial experts could have this degree of control and use all their potential as fighters, and Uub totally lacked this.

...and yet... anger is shown to bring out even greater strength over and over throughout the series.

Also, claiming that "if we adhere to what's said the manga" the base limit could not pass a certain limit... when we're discussing that very topic... seems a little arrogant.

Well, the very definition of a SSJ speaks of that limit that can't be surpassed (it's not only that there's a limit, it's that it specifically say that it can't be surpassed), that's why I said it.
But the thing is, I don't think there's a single feat from a saiyan in base that contradicts this claim.

Feats might be rare but implications are pretty clear. Gero's calculations regarding his surpassing of Vegeta, Vegeta's claim pre-25th Tenkaichi Budokai, 18 vs Goten/Trunks at that same tournament, Gohan's wielding of the Z-Sword becoming effortless, the fusions obviously surpassing these supposed genetic limitations but still being completely Saiyan/half-Saiyan, Goku engaging in battle with an opponent he expected to be stronger than Mr Buu...

Well, your point would be valid if Gohan in base had surpassed his previous SSJ form. Since I'm arguing that the saiyan base state has a limit that can't be surpassed unless he turns into SSJ, him in base proving to be stronger than himself in SSJ before his training would prove your point that Toriyama contradicted himself with this.
But as I see it, what we have is:
Gohan lifts the sword in SSJ putting a lot of effort into it.
Gohan wields the sword in SSJ (without putting an effort, at least that we can see).
Gohan wields the sword in base (without putting an effort).

Now, this proves Gohan got stronger which is something I agree (Gohan got weaker because of the lack of training, which means that he could improve his base state again) but your point revolves around his base being stronger than his SSJ (only in this way you can prove that the base state limit claims were contradicted) and this is not proved by this chain of feats. Lifting the sword was hard to SSJ Gohan, but we can't see base Gohan after the training lifting the sword again, so it can't be proved through there.
And when he wields the sword in SSJ we don't see him having problems to do so, so him being able to do it fairly well in base also doesn't prove his base state broke what was said.

Why be SSJ at all, in those few frames where he was wielding the sword, if it wasn't required?

Which then leads to... why can he now be in base form wielding it when Goku arrives?

The thing is that Kaioshin never says anything about them only being at base. He simply says they're much more powerful than he expected, even when he had already witnessed the power of a SSJ2 and knew that Vegeta was at least "unimpressed" by what Gohan showcased at the tournament.

If he had say what he said in relation to the base state, I don't think it would've been hidden from the reader.

Honestly, that whole spaceship scene makes a lot more sense if you understand how uninformed Kaioshin is. He doesn't know the extent of SSJ at all. Likely, his only direct exposure to the transformation is observing Gohan pre-tournament. He probably doesn't even realize that Vegeta can transform. He never directly witnessed Goku vs Freeza... so he has misconceptions about strength levels and hierarchy.

Vegeta being unimpressed doesn't default him to being stronger. He directly compared [CG] SSJ2 Gohan to [25TB] SSJ2 Gohan... and was unimpressed... even disappointed. He had seen stronger.

They were. Gohan lost a transformation. Even if the change was small (he went from low SSJ2 to FPSSJ), he still was retconned to better showcase how weak he had turned (he lost a transformation without any reasonable explanation).
Regarding KaiohShin, he was feared by everyone and he was able to block Gohan's SSJ2 (which means that he could've been able to easily block even Dabra if he wanted), while on the spaceship he was impressed even by the base state feats.
His role in the saga clearly did a 180º turn, from someone important to your usual z-fother.

He didn't lose a transformation. The reason the whole "Was Gohan SSJ or SSJ2??" discussion continues o this day is because both sides are right... he was teetering right on that threshold. That's how much he had weakened over the years. He barely broke through that SSJ2 threshold at the tournament and couldn't quite get there later. Blame it on him having his energy drained. Blame it on the anger he experienced at Videl's beating.

Kaioshin was feared by no one. Ever. Except maybe Babidi.
He stopped Gohan, a character that was simply standing there and had no awareness of an third party beyond Spoppo/Yamu... and Kaioshin struggled to hold him there for more than a moment. Being impressed by the Base Saiyans simply means his psychic ability reaches beyond his own strength... which has been displayed repeatedly throughout the series.

Maybe he meant 530k Freezer, maybe he lied in order to motivate the SSJs... but as I say, it's too many things.
It's him being feared not only by Piccolo but also by Goku (Goku says KaiohShin won't be easy to win, and he had no reason to lie), blocking the SSJ2 and then forgetting he could do this with Dabra and other characters implied to be much lower than a SSJ2 in power, his statement about Freezer and his further reactions...

If we want to give it a canonically valid explanation we could use his "divinity" as an excuse for his very good first impressions, his "mental god powers" to justify how he blocked a SSJ2 or him speaking about Freezer's weakest form or lying like other characters did previously in the series. But that's too many unexplained factors to justify his change, that's why I think that more than a planned evolution of the character what we saw was Toriyama changing his mind about what to do with him for the rest of the saga.

Firstly, I doubt he intentionally lied to the characters... there'd be no point to that if it wasn't revealed. If you would like me to find the post I made regarding why it is more likely he was speaking about 530k Freeza (even though it would make more out-of-universe sense to be speaking about 100% Freeza), then I can...

Secondly, I must repeat: Kaioshin was not feared by Piccolo. Piccolo could not sense Kaioshin (no one could). He did not know why his instincts told him not to attack. He was confused and unable to explain what was happening. He could not advance, so, he retreated... and worked things out afterwards.

An individual has approached the group appearing to know full well who Goku is. He is completely unreadable in terms of strength and seems to know more than he lets on. He then claims the tournament will be interesting. Of course Goku is going to comment on how winning might not be as easy as he thought... it doesn't mean anything about Kaioshin's actual strength... it is used to strengthen the mystery that surrounds the newly introduced character.

He also doesn't need "mental god powers" to justify his telekinetic attack. It's an attack that has been used in the series by weaker opponents subduing stronger ones.

This "change" you speak of... isn't one of the character... Kaioshin turned up thinking he knew everything and it turned out he didn't know jack all. The "change" is just a display of that collapse.


Related question: How do you justify [Future] Base Gohan vs [Future] SSJ Trunks?

 

[freezamite]

No, the limit I'm speaking of is the one when Vegeta says: "a SSJ is a saiyan that can overcome a wall that no other saiyan, no matter how gifted he is, can ever surpass" (or something in those lines).
That's the limit that defines what a SSJ is.

I would appreciate the quote and time, if you could provide that.

Sorry for the delay, but there you have it:

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P3.1-2
Vegeta: “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…That’s supposed to just be a stupid tradition…And even if the legend were true…only I would have the potential to become a Super Saiyan.”

They weren't mental limits because he in fact got the rage boost precisely because he still wanted to become stronger. He specifically speaks of a hellish training and how he realised his limits because of it. Now, if a SSJ can continue to increase his strength in base you should be able to explain me:
1. Why does the zenkay power disappear on the regular saiyans?
2. Why is it that we aren't shown a single scene that demonstrates that those limits were broken, and the feats we see (40 tons Goku feat) precisely point towards that limit still existing?

1. The Zenkai ability is never noted to disappear or stop functioning. Just because it is no longer highlighted or abused doesn't mean it disappeared. That's like assuming Launch was dead because no one spoke of her again. Until it's stated or shown to no longer exist, it's still a thing... just not something worth mentioning, obviously.
2. That's what we're discussing here. There are scenes that demonstrate such a thing... there's quite a few... but it almost seems like you're letting your view that there's a fixed base limit skew your opinion... and deny any chance at changing that opinion. As for the 40 ton feat, feel free to explain how that cements a base limit existing.

1. The difference between the zenkays and Launch is that while Launch becomes irrelevant to the story, the Zenkay -which were a way to get stronger- didn't or shouldn't have (in fact, didn't).
Firstly, the zenkay are highlighted during the Cell saga where they make sense plot-wise, which is, with Cell. Cell has a Zenkay, and not only it's not hidden but it's explicitly said that he got one, so Toriyama didn't forgot about that.
On the other hand, what the Zenkays achieved (an increase in power) was something that was still central to the series. Every single z-warrior wanted to become stronger, the saiyans included, so why would they stop abusing the zenkays if that would still work on them? Because we know Toriyama didn't forgot them, as it's proven by Cell's zenkay at the end of the Cell saga.

2. The only scenes you've found are Gohan improving with the z-sword, BUT, we know Gohan wasn't at his peak of strength after having spent 7 years neglecting his training. So how are you proving that he surpassed his base state limit when we are clearly told that he got weaker, which means that he wasn't at his limit?
On the other hand, the 40 tons feat for base Goku proves that he wasn't stronger than himself at the end of the Namek saga, which is when he turned SSJ and as a result reached the limit of his base form.

Actually, it's shown pretty clearly, that although Goku may have meager heritage as a "low-class" Saiyan, he has the ability to gain strength and train at greater effectiveness than any other full-blooded Saiyan.

And yes, every other Saiyan in the series breaks through that limit... it's a common thing for limits to be broken casually after first being breached by a single character in Dragon Ball.

In fact, what's shown in the series as I see it is that Goku, despite having much less natural attributes than the rest of the saiyans shown in the series, can improve much further thanks to his much, much better trainings and knowledge of how mastering his own Ki.

Except that you need to take the character and the context into consideration. Goku... Mr AlwaysTrainingToGetStronger, is super hyped to compete with his first possible worthy opponents in years... would it really make sense for him to simply be maintaining? As opposed to trying to get as strong as he can before the tournament? I'm not saying he'd make a lot of gains in that time... but he'd still be trying to squeeze what he could out of it.

It's not about what makes sense for him but about what he can do. And it's not "maintenance" training because as I've said, he is at his limit, so to maintain yourself at your limit you have to train as hard as ever.
And then, of course, he improves where he can improve, which is his SSJ forms (he achieves the SSJ3 during that period of time that goes between the Cell and Bu sagas).

I don't recall saying his base state was >>> his pre-Z-Sword SSJ state...

Look at this demonstration:

Does it seem like his SSJ state could wield it any better than that? He's literally throwing it around and catching it... what more could he have possibly been doing as SSJ?

Time to remind you what we were discussing. I said there's a limit in the base state, and that this limit is below any SSJ form seen in the series and that the limit -for a regular saiyan- is achieved before turning into a SSJ -in other words, you can't unlock the SSJ if you haven't reached it-.
You said there's no such limit, and used this scene to prove that a Gohan that had previously unlocked the SSJ form could still increase his power.
To that, I replied that Gohan was an exception, because unlike the other saiyans he stopped to train after he achieved the SSJ forms and as a result got weaker, so my stance is that Gohan could increase his power in base state again because his lack of training put him considerably below his base state limit.

The thing is, if you want to prove with that scene that Gohan's base state had no limits, you should compare it with his previously untrained SSJ and prove he was much stronger now without being SSJ. Otherwise, I can't see how you can prove that Gohan went beyond his limits with that scene.

No, that's exactly what he went into it expecting. He was expecting Kid Buu level strength... or close to it. At the very least he was expecting a level that could defeat Mr Buu. And after seeing Uub's inexperience... he attempted to draw out that level of power with anger.

Re-read that chapter, please. Since the very beginning of the fight (in fact, even before they start fighting) Goku can tell how inexperienced Ub was.
Goku knew Ub had the potential of matching Kid Bu, but he clearly wasn't expecting to fight against full potential Ub there. One's mental condition is as important as physical strength in DB, and Ub, besides being an inexperienced Kid that hadn't trained in his life didn't even have the right attitude to fight.
Once he got a bit pissed he actually surpassed base Goku in strength (although not by much), but he clearly wasn't as strong as Kid bu was nor close to it.

He lacked the control over his Ki to consciously call upon it... which is what Goku was attempting to force through anger. Goku wouldn't have been very satisfied if he made Uub angry and Uub punched him with the strength of Nappa... Nappa is a HUGE leap above the average human... and would point to Uub have ridiculous potential by being so strong at such a young age, untrained... but that would still be an absolute joke.

Of course, but Ub forces base Goku to go serious, and even then he surpasses him a bit in terms of strength. That's why Goku is happy with what he sees, because he knows Ub has the potential to become as strong as he had hoped.

...and yet... anger is shown to bring out even greater strength over and over throughout the series.

Not any kind of anger. Freezer, Nappa or Vegeta in the earth among others got angry towards Goku and that didn't help him. In fact, nearly every single enemy Goku fight expresses anger against him but that doesn't help them.
The anger that works is the one that comes after the impotence of wanting something and not being able of achieving it, that's why only pure-hearted fighters can have those rage boosts.

Why be SSJ at all, in those few frames where he was wielding the sword, if it wasn't required?

Which then leads to... why can he now be in base form wielding it when Goku arrives?

Because his weakened base state couldn't wield the sword, but his current base state can. That doesn't prove in any way that Gohan broke what was said about the base state having a limit that couldn't be surpassed.