Can someone explain me the origin of Goku's unlimited strength in the manga?

[SSJ2]

If that's who you are then prepare to get choked to death.

 

[freezamite]

The characters constantly surpass any mentioned limits. Yes, I understand this is not necessarily proof that they surpassed whatever you believe their last limit was... but I am mentioning it because it is shown as a trend throughout the series.

But not even once a "limit" had the plot relevance of the base state limit, nor was it confirmed to exist even after it had been surpassed by other means (in this case, turning into SSJ).

The narrator and Vegeta specifically state that Goku has surpassed "Saiyan" limits post-100xG training... a level of strength the others quickly surpass also.

The thing is, those "saiyan limits" the narrator and Vegeta spoke were never meant to be hard limits on what a saiyan could possibly do (at least the one the narrator mentions), it was just a way of saying that thanks to the 100G training Goku had reached a strength no other known saiyan had been able to reach before.

The Saiyans continue to train in their base forms all the way into the Buu arc. This is especially damning to your point if you believe in fixed multipliers for Super Saiyan forms (not sure if you do or not, just saying).

Them training in their base forms doesn't mean they can still get stronger in their base forms (and knowing that they weaken if they stop to train, it's only logical that they would continue to do so even when the limit is reached).
Regarding the SSJ multipliers, they weren't fixed at all, so it's not a valid counter-argument to what I say.

Goku faces off against Uub in his base form. Goku is expecting a level of power at least above Mr Buu and his expectations are met, if not surpassed.

But Goku is also surprised to see how Uub can't properly control his ki. Maybe Ub had the potential to be as strong as Kid bu, but without knowing how to use his Ki, his actual power in a fight was only a fraction of what he could really do.

Post-Namek examples are obviously going to be rare due to the fact that Super Saiyan (and it's followup forms) were the new sources of power and "limits" to be surpassed.

EDIT: Oh yea, Goku vs Yakon is probably worth mentioning also. Pui Pui is a poor example because his strength can be written off so easily due to Kaioshin just freaking out at Babidi recruiting the strongest warriors in the Universe and not actually knowing anything about Pui Pui specifically. But Yakon is someone he recognizes and fears, even though he himself could down Freeza in a single blow... apparently.

But the SSJ didn't prevent Toriyama form showing us how Gohan got stronger in his base state training with the Z-sword. And in the same way, we had dozens of examples of Goku becoming stronger in base during the Namek saga, even when in terms of his maximum output that would be him using the KK.
Regarding Kaioshin, well, he was totally retconned as a character when he got inside the babidi spaceship. I mean, his fear for Pui Pui or him being surprised at Vegeta's strength when he was blocking Gohan's powers as a SSJ2 in the tournament just a few chapters before prove it.
The KaioShin that blocked Gohan's SSJ2 and was feared by Piccolo and even Goku could've killed Freezer in a single hit, the one that freaks at Yakon and Pui Pui on the other hand...

1)Trained hard ? Who do you think you're kidding ? Get in the RoSaT, and you'll see what is a REAL training!

2)Yeah, right ! It's quite obvious that it has been done as a convenient excuse to use the most popular villain in the movie. The previous movie was supposed to establish that such a level was almost impossible for mortals to reach by natural means...then they procceed to fuck it up, starting with your training. A born genius, seriously ? Was this all they could come up with as an explanation on why you could get to god-tier ? With such ease at that ?

Unfortunately, what's done is done. So it was part of your potential all along, somehow.

In other words, you didn't understand Freezer as a character. Freezer had the power he had in Namek when he hadn't trained even once in his life, and that was already implied in the manga when:
1. He wasn't able to use his 100% of power without having severe stamina problems and forcing his body.
2. He admitted that he had never used his 100% of power before his fight with SSJ Goku.

Freezer becoming that strong is not just a plot device for the movie, it's part of his definition as a character. The fact that it was empathised so many times that he reached that power with only 4 months of training should tell you all about what Toriyama had on mind with him.

 

[Keedounan]

The characters constantly surpass any mentioned limits. Yes, I understand this is not necessarily proof that they surpassed whatever you believe their last limit was... but I am mentioning it because it is shown as a trend throughout the series.

But not even once a "limit" had the plot relevance of the base state limit, nor was it confirmed to exist even after it had been surpassed by other means (in this case, turning into SSJ).

The narrator and Vegeta specifically state that Goku has surpassed "Saiyan" limits post-100xG training... a level of strength the others quickly surpass also.

The thing is, those "saiyan limits" the narrator and Vegeta spoke were never meant to be hard limits on what a saiyan could possibly do (at least the one the narrator mentions), it was just a way of saying that thanks to the 100G training Goku had reached a strength no other known saiyan had been able to reach before.

The Saiyans continue to train in their base forms all the way into the Buu arc. This is especially damning to your point if you believe in fixed multipliers for Super Saiyan forms (not sure if you do or not, just saying).

Them training in their base forms doesn't mean they can still get stronger in their base forms (and knowing that they weaken if they stop to train, it's only logical that they would continue to do so even when the limit is reached).
Regarding the SSJ multipliers, they weren't fixed at all, so it's not a valid counter-argument to what I say.

Goku faces off against Uub in his base form. Goku is expecting a level of power at least above Mr Buu and his expectations are met, if not surpassed.

But Goku is also surprised to see how Uub can't properly control his ki. Maybe Ub had the potential to be as strong as Kid bu, but without knowing how to use his Ki, his actual power in a fight was only a fraction of what he could really do.

Post-Namek examples are obviously going to be rare due to the fact that Super Saiyan (and it's followup forms) were the new sources of power and "limits" to be surpassed.

EDIT: Oh yea, Goku vs Yakon is probably worth mentioning also. Pui Pui is a poor example because his strength can be written off so easily due to Kaioshin just freaking out at Babidi recruiting the strongest warriors in the Universe and not actually knowing anything about Pui Pui specifically. But Yakon is someone he recognizes and fears, even though he himself could down Freeza in a single blow... apparently.

But the SSJ didn't prevent Toriyama form showing us how Gohan got stronger in his base state training with the Z-sword. And in the same way, we had dozens of examples of Goku becoming stronger in base during the Namek saga, even when in terms of his maximum output that would be him using the KK.
Regarding Kaioshin, well, he was totally retconned as a character when he got inside the babidi spaceship. I mean, his fear for Pui Pui or him being surprised at Vegeta's strength when he was blocking Gohan's powers as a SSJ2 in the tournament just a few chapters before prove it.
The KaioShin that blocked Gohan's SSJ2 and was feared by Piccolo and even Goku could've killed Freezer in a single hit, the one that freaks at Yakon and Pui Pui on the other hand...

1)Trained hard ? Who do you think you're kidding ? Get in the RoSaT, and you'll see what is a REAL training!

2)Yeah, right ! It's quite obvious that it has been done as a convenient excuse to use the most popular villain in the movie. The previous movie was supposed to establish that such a level was almost impossible for mortals to reach by natural means...then they procceed to fuck it up, starting with your training. A born genius, seriously ? Was this all they could come up with as an explanation on why you could get to god-tier ? With such ease at that ?

Unfortunately, what's done is done. So it was part of your potential all along, somehow.

In other words, you didn't understand Freezer as a character. Freezer had the power he had in Namek when he hadn't trained even once in his life, and that was already implied in the manga when:
1. He wasn't able to use his 100% of power without having severe stamina problems and forcing his body.
2. He admitted that he had never used his 100% of power before his fight with SSJ Goku.

Freezer becoming that strong is not just a plot device for the movie, it's part of his definition as a character. The fact that it was empathised so many times that he reached that power with only 4 months of training should tell you all about what Toriyama had on mind with him.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I've pointed out that Freeza being a born genius was Toriyama's plan for him. What I meant is that this is a disappointing plot point, because it's an enormous power-up that conveniently made him God-tier in a very short period, especially when the previous movie made it clear that such a level couldn't be achieved through natural means.

Heck, even the kids were much more gifted than he is. Yet, their training as Gotenks in the RoSaT didn't produced nearly as much result.

Vegeta is also more gifted than Goku. Yet, he was surpassed more than once.

To add insult to injury, he didn't even trained that hard. He just tortured Tagoma to near death every day.

No matter how you look at it, Freeza's PU is an asspull.

 

[Cell]

The characters constantly surpass any mentioned limits. Yes, I understand this is not necessarily proof that they surpassed whatever you believe their last limit was... but I am mentioning it because it is shown as a trend throughout the series.

But not even once a "limit" had the plot relevance of the base state limit, nor was it confirmed to exist even after it had been surpassed by other means (in this case, turning into SSJ).

Where exactly is this base state limit stated? ^^

The narrator and Vegeta specifically state that Goku has surpassed "Saiyan" limits post-100xG training... a level of strength the others quickly surpass also.

The thing is, those "saiyan limits" the narrator and Vegeta spoke were never meant to be hard limits on what a saiyan could possibly do (at least the one the narrator mentions), it was just a way of saying that thanks to the 100G training Goku had reached a strength no other known saiyan had been able to reach before.

Well, firstly... at least one other Saiyan had reached those levels before... and was dubbed a Super Saiyan, as per Vegeta's internal monologue. Secondly, it was simply an example of a so-called "limit" being surpassed, as had been the case many time prior... and this example specifically tied into Saiyans. As with the above, where exactly is a limit placed on base beyond this surpassed limit?

The Saiyans continue to train in their base forms all the way into the Buu arc. This is especially damning to your point if you believe in fixed multipliers for Super Saiyan forms (not sure if you do or not, just saying).

Them training in their base forms doesn't mean they can still get stronger in their base forms (and knowing that they weaken if they stop to train, it's only logical that they would continue to do so even when the limit is reached).
Regarding the SSJ multipliers, they weren't fixed at all, so it's not a valid counter-argument to what I say.

Maintenance training is one thing... but Goku's weighted shadow-boxing... while flying... hardly seems like that. Gohan's Z-Sword training also takes his base beyond his previous SSJ levels...
As for the multipliers thing... as I noted, it's particularly damning if you follow fixed multipliers... with "you" here representing anyone reading this... not you, freezamite, specifically. Whether they're fixed, or variable, or even a thing at all... isn't really relevant, so I won't get into it.

Goku faces off against Uub in his base form. Goku is expecting a level of power at least above Mr Buu and his expectations are met, if not surpassed.

But Goku is also surprised to see how Uub can't properly control his ki. Maybe Ub had the potential to be as strong as Kid bu, but without knowing how to use his Ki, his actual power in a fight was only a fraction of what he could really do.

Then why was he noted to enjoy the fight so much? Wouldn't a more likely explanation be that although he doesn't have control over his Ki, Uub manages to subconciously draw on that power through his anger (as Goku incited)... but without that control he cannot fly... cannot fire Ki blasts... etc.

Post-Namek examples are obviously going to be rare due to the fact that Super Saiyan (and it's followup forms) were the new sources of power and "limits" to be surpassed.

But the SSJ didn't prevent Toriyama form showing us how Gohan got stronger in his base state training with the Z-sword. And in the same way, we had dozens of examples of Goku becoming stronger in base during the Namek saga, even when in terms of his maximum output that would be him using the KK.

Well, KK is directly tied to base... as base increases, it directly increases in output. It was also supposed to be a trump card, not something used non-stop as a new maximum.

And if you're going to bring Gohan into this example; his wielding of the Z-Sword in base is superior to his wielding of it in SSJ a day prior... also, his base was higher than SSJ Trunks... both of these facts point to the initial SSJ threshold being surpass-able.

EDIT: Oh yea, Goku vs Yakon is probably worth mentioning also. Pui Pui is a poor example because his strength can be written off so easily due to Kaioshin just freaking out at Babidi recruiting the strongest warriors in the Universe and not actually knowing anything about Pui Pui specifically. But Yakon is someone he recognizes and fears, even though he himself could down Freeza in a single blow... apparently.

Regarding Kaioshin, well, he was totally retconned as a character when he got inside the babidi spaceship. I mean, his fear for Pui Pui or him being surprised at Vegeta's strength when he was blocking Gohan's powers as a SSJ2 in the tournament just a few chapters before prove it.
The KaioShin that blocked Gohan's SSJ2 and was feared by Piccolo and even Goku could've killed Freezer in a single hit, the one that freaks at Yakon and Pui Pui on the other hand...

His fear of Pui Pui stemmed from lack of information... a common theme when it comes to Kaioshin. He was afraid of the unknown. All he knows of Pui Pui is that he was "employed" by Babidi... and that Babidi recruits the strongest warriors in the Universe. He was paranoid. He knew they were jumping into a trap.

His surprise at Vegeta's strength... is just that. Vegeta didn't turn Super Saiyan. He didn't even try. He just wiped out "one of the strongest warriors in the Universe" casually.

Yakon on the other hand is a completely different case. Kaioshin knows who he is. There's no mystery to it. He knows what to expect...

As for stopping Gohan, Chaozu could do that to Goku when he was leagues below him... why can't Kaioshin do the same here.

Piccolo and Goku do not fear Kaioshin's strength at any moment in the entire story. Goku is surprised to hear of other characters of Freeza+ tier, and Piccolo steps down because he doesn't know what's going on and his instincts are telling him not to attack. He can't sense Kaioshin... none of them can... so him stepping down due to strength differences is absurd.

 

[freezamite]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I've pointed out that Freeza being a born genius was Toriyama's plan for him. What I meant is that this is a disappointing plot point, because it's an enormous power-up that conveniently made him God-tier in a very short period, especially when the previous movie made it clear that such a level couldn't be achieved through natural means.

It's not that enormous when you scale it from the manga. You have to think that to Toriyama the typical untrained SSJ had just 1/4th the strength of Freezer, and when power-scaling according to the rules established there (the manga), he wasn't that far from even Bu and the SSJs 2 and 3 (that SSJ 3 being 4 times as strong as the SSJ 2 is, again, non-canon bullshit).
Freezer being at around FP SSJ levels of power (a bit less than the strongest FP SSJs, which would be Perfect Cell and maybe Goku/Vegeta from the bu Saga), he wasn't that far from the top tiers of the series (just a tad below Majin Dabra) fusions not included.

Now, given the brutal effects in a fight that a 50% increase in power can imply, the low God tier of fighters (at leas the ones defined in the movies/manga) could perfectly be just 5x Goku's SSJ3. Compared to a FP SSJ that would be what, a 8-9x increase at best? So let's say a 10x increase compared to Namek Freezer.
In 4 months of training, and considering Freezer hadn't trained in his life and the progress other fighters make in the series in similar time-spans, it seems completely reasonable.

Heck, even the kids were much more gifted than he is. Yet, their training as Gotenks in the RoSaT didn't produced nearly as much result.

No, the kids were never implied to be more gifted than a saiyan. They had their SSJ forms assimilated since they were born because they were conceived from SSJs, in the same way Cell knew everyone's techniques only because he inherited their Cells. But the limits of strength were implied to be exactly the same, like it was seen in the final chapters of the manga were their future selves weren't much stronger than they already were as kids.

Vegeta is also more gifted than Goku. Yet, he was surpassed more than once.

Goku only managed to surpass Vegeta in strength in his voyage at Namek, and at the expense of several zenkay powers + intense gravity training. But there never was a doubt on who was the superior saiyan (genetically speaking). Vegeta only needed an extra zenkay to again put himself well past Goku, and even when Goku had another Zenkay, he never approached Vegeta's natural strength ever again.
Only through being much better at controlling his Ki he could compensate the difference with Vegeta as a SSJ, always having it much more evolved and mastered than Goku ever had.

To add insult to injury, he didn't even trained that hard. He just tortured Tagoma to near death every day.

That's from the anime, not the manga.

No matter how you look at it, Freeza's PU is an asspull.

No, it isn't. Freezer's potential was already hinted with Cell when he went from FP SSJ to SSJ2 with a zenkay. The zenkays disappear when a Saiyan reaches his base state limit, but Cell's limit was much, much higher (and of course, that was thanks to Freezer and Cold -mostly Freezer since he was the strongest by far-, since we saw Piccolo peaking even below Cell's original FP SSJ level).

Where exactly is this base state limit stated? ^^

In the very definition of what's a SSJ (Vegeta at Namek when Goku arrives there), though don't look for it in the viz translation (look at the one done by Herms).
When Vegeta explained how he achieved his SSJ form.

Well, firstly... at least one other Saiyan had reached those levels before... and was dubbed a Super Saiyan, as per Vegeta's internal monologue.

Of course, but that's not what Toriyama meant to say. He compared Goku to the average saiyan, the SSJ was always something a part from the rest.

Secondly, it was simply an example of a so-called "limit" being surpassed, as had been the case many time prior... and this example specifically tied into Saiyans. As with the above, where exactly is a limit placed on base beyond this surpassed limit?

Look at Vegeta's explanation on how he turned into a SSJ. If it wasn't for the base state limit, Vegeta would've never become a SSJ (he wouldn't have had the rage boost against himself).

Maintenance training is one thing... but Goku's weighted shadow-boxing... while flying... hardly seems like that.

Can't see why. I mean, if it was Satan... but Goku had more than enough strength to do that.

Gohan's Z-Sword training also takes his base beyond his previous SSJ levels...

I don't remember this. Gohan turns SSJ to take the sword out of the rock, and afterwards it's only seen once as a SSJ while training with the z-sword, but it's in a scene that makes impossible to say that he had any problems to move the sword. Would you care to point me to that scene were SSJ Gohan is having problems with the z-sword?

Then why was he noted to enjoy the fight so much?

He was in his base, even Ub's uncontrolled ki was more than a match for him in that state. Cell also had fun fighting Goku, that doesn't mean he could've one hit killed him if he ever felt to.

Wouldn't a more likely explanation be that although he doesn't have control over his Ki, Uub manages to subconciously draw on that power through his anger (as Goku incited)... but without that control he cannot fly... cannot fire Ki blasts... etc.

No, controlling one's ki goes much further than that in the series. Nappa for example let his emotions disrupt his ki, he could still fly or fire Ki blasts... it's just that his overall power level was reduced to much, much less than it really was.
The same concept applied to the SSJs. The only difference implied between a FP SSJ and a regular untrained SSJ was that the FP SSJ had the ki controlled thanks to reducing the violent stressing feelings of the body. But except for that, they were the same transformation applied to the same base state power (who couldn't vary past the limit if we adhere to what's said in the manga).

And if you're going to bring Gohan into this example; his wielding of the Z-Sword in base is superior to his wielding of it in SSJ a day prior... also, his base was higher than SSJ Trunks... both of these facts point to the initial SSJ threshold being surpass-able.

That would be a big contradiction and prove your point, but I've checked and I haven't seen Gohan having any problems in using the z-sword as a SSJ...

His fear of Pui Pui stemmed from lack of information... a common theme when it comes to Kaioshin. He was afraid of the unknown. All he knows of Pui Pui is that he was "employed" by Babidi... and that Babidi recruits the strongest warriors in the Universe. He was paranoid. He knew they were jumping into a trap.

His surprise at Vegeta's strength... is just that. Vegeta didn't turn Super Saiyan. He didn't even try. He just wiped out "one of the strongest warriors in the Universe" casually.

His whole reaction was a mess. Even if he was just reacting in that way in the beginning because of the lack of information, he already had seen Gohan's SSJ2 and he knew Vegeta was stronger.
Yet he couldn't believe Vegeta could be that strong, with just a fraction of what he had to see from Gohan. Furthermore, the implied strength from Yakon is also much lower than Gohan's SSJ2, why was he so scared if even Dabra would fall below that power level?
He and Gohan both were retconned as characters, it's the only explanation I have for the sudden change in those two (Gohan going from SSJ2 to FPSSSJ although in both cases it was implied he was weaker, and KaiohShin going from someone important and strong to fodder that served a bit as gag relief later in the saga).

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Base Goku buu saga-100 million

 

[Cell]

Where exactly is this base state limit stated? ^^

In the very definition of what's a SSJ (Vegeta at Namek when Goku arrives there), though don't look for it in the viz translation (look at the one done by Herms).
When Vegeta explained how he achieved his SSJ form.

The limit mentioned by Vegeta on Namek was surpassed right there and then. Stated by Vegeta and the narrator: Goku had surpassed Saiyan limits.

The limit that Vegeta mentions during his Super Saiyan speech could be interpreted as an impossible to surpass in base limit... or as one that was possible to surpass now that he had achieved Super Saiyan... or even simply mental limits. He drove himself mad trying to achieve Super Saiyan... and finally did.

Well, firstly... at least one other Saiyan had reached those levels before... and was dubbed a Super Saiyan, as per Vegeta's internal monologue.

Of course, but that's not what Toriyama meant to say. He compared Goku to the average saiyan, the SSJ was always something a part from the rest.

Not what Toriyama meant to say? I didn't realize you two were so close. You're implying that what was really meant to be said was "What? No way! Kakarot's a 'Super ...for an average but nothing to me because I'm elite and will surpass that level easily... Saiyan!'"

Secondly, it was simply an example of a so-called "limit" being surpassed, as had been the case many time prior... and this example specifically tied into Saiyans. As with the above, where exactly is a limit placed on base beyond this surpassed limit?

Look at Vegeta's explanation on how he turned into a SSJ. If it wasn't for the base state limit, Vegeta would've never become a SSJ (he wouldn't have had the rage boost against himself).

As noted above.

Maintenance training is one thing... but Goku's weighted shadow-boxing... while flying... hardly seems like that.

Can't see why. I mean, if it was Satan... but Goku had more than enough strength to do that.

Check his expressions and sweat. He's training for an upcoming tournament he's hyped for... that doesn't seem like maintenance training to me.

Gohan, Vegeta, Goten and Trunks are all shown pushing themselves in base prior to the tournament also.

Gohan's Z-Sword training also takes his base beyond his previous SSJ levels...

I don't remember this. Gohan turns SSJ to take the sword out of the rock, and afterwards it's only seen once as a SSJ while training with the z-sword, but it's in a scene that makes impossible to say that he had any problems to move the sword. Would you care to point me to that scene were SSJ Gohan is having problems with the z-sword?

Timline:
- Gohan struggles to pull the sword out as SSJ.
- Gohan requires SSJ to wield sword.
- Gohan wields sword in base.

...seems like a pretty straight forward progression of strength to me.

Then why was he noted to enjoy the fight so much?

He was in his base, even Ub's uncontrolled ki was more than a match for him in that state. Cell also had fun fighting Goku, that doesn't mean he could've one hit killed him if he ever felt to.

He went into the battle intentionally angering a character he believed to be, at the very least, stronger than Mr Buu. Seems a little risky to take a hit from an angry Mr Buu+ character in a terrible low, by comparison, base form.

Wouldn't a more likely explanation be that although he doesn't have control over his Ki, Uub manages to subconciously draw on that power through his anger (as Goku incited)... but without that control he cannot fly... cannot fire Ki blasts... etc.

No, controlling one's ki goes much further than that in the series. Nappa for example let his emotions disrupt his ki, he could still fly or fire Ki blasts... it's just that his overall power level was reduced to much, much less than it really was.
The same concept applied to the SSJs. The only difference implied between a FP SSJ and a regular untrained SSJ was that the FP SSJ had the ki controlled thanks to reducing the violent stressing feelings of the body. But except for that, they were the same transformation applied to the same base state power (who couldn't vary past the limit if we adhere to what's said in the manga).

You're confusing "control" for "knowledge". Nappa had the knowledge of flight and Ki blasts... but his ability to wield his Ki was disrupted by his emotions. Uub has neither. Uub has no awareness, no knowledge, of Ki and Ki control... thus he cannot fly... and he cannot fire Ki blasts... he lacks the knowledge, thus control is impossible.

As for the SSJ stance; The only difference between Goku's SSJ transformation pre-RoSaT and post-RoSaT is that he loses the uneasy, anxiousness induced, likely brought on by physical stress and primal/rage-induced nature of the SSJ transformation. He literally gets used to it, allowing him to be comfortable and "himself" while transformed. Increased Ki capacity is earned... and Ki control is not mentioned at all.

Also, claiming that "if we adhere to what's said the manga" the base limit could not pass a certain limit... when we're discussing that very topic... seems a little arrogant.

And if you're going to bring Gohan into this example; his wielding of the Z-Sword in base is superior to his wielding of it in SSJ a day prior... also, his base was higher than SSJ Trunks... both of these facts point to the initial SSJ threshold being surpass-able.

That would be a big contradiction and prove your point, but I've checked and I haven't seen Gohan having any problems in using the z-sword as a SSJ...

As mentioned above, it's not about having trouble, it's about requiring it in the first place. Perhaps I poorly worded it with the whole "superior" thing... but the point remains... he struggled to lift it as a Super Saiyan... he required Super Saiyan to weild it... and then he didn't. I don't see how any of that would be contradictory to my point, so I'd appreciate if you could explain that.

His fear of Pui Pui stemmed from lack of information... a common theme when it comes to Kaioshin. He was afraid of the unknown. All he knows of Pui Pui is that he was "employed" by Babidi... and that Babidi recruits the strongest warriors in the Universe. He was paranoid. He knew they were jumping into a trap.

His surprise at Vegeta's strength... is just that. Vegeta didn't turn Super Saiyan. He didn't even try. He just wiped out "one of the strongest warriors in the Universe" casually.

His whole reaction was a mess. Even if he was just reacting in that way in the beginning because of the lack of information, he already had seen Gohan's SSJ2 and he knew Vegeta was stronger.
Yet he couldn't believe Vegeta could be that strong, with just a fraction of what he had to see from Gohan. Furthermore, the implied strength from Yakon is also much lower than Gohan's SSJ2, why was he so scared if even Dabra would fall below that power level?
He and Gohan both were retconned as characters, it's the only explanation I have for the sudden change in those two (Gohan going from SSJ2 to FPSSSJ although in both cases it was implied he was weaker, and KaiohShin going from someone important and strong to fodder that served a bit as gag relief later in the saga).

He had seen Gohan's SSJ2 strength... and believed he was the strongest character there (though this may be an anime-only line... I don't have my manga on me at the moment)... while transformed. That last bit is a key point here.

Kaioshin couldn't believe that these characters, in base, were vanquishing "the strongest warriors in the Universe".

The real issue here isn't that he sensed these characters and should've had a good measure on where everyone stood... it's whether he could sense characters strength accurately at all.

Neither Gohan nor Kaioshin were retconned.
Gohan barely broke into SSJ2 tier (as implied by Vegeta's comments at the tournament), so his strength displayed there, and the strength used against Dabura, actually don't have to be that different.
Kaioshin was never had his strength reduced... he was simply never strong to begin with. What is there to show he's strong? That Piccolo backed down? That's absurd because no one could measure Kaioshin at that point and Piccolo clearly forfeited due to other reasons. Because he can one shot Freeza? Hah. I have some long post about this somewhere... but short version is that, in-Universe anyway, Kaioshin was likely referring to 530k Freeza. Because he held barely SSJ2 Gohan back? Again, not very impressive when Chaozu could do the same to a Goku that was leagues above him. Because he survived Buu? A Buu that was torturing and toying with him? :/

 

[ahill1]

Gohan barely broke into SSJ2 tier (as implied by Vegeta's comments at the tournament), so his strength displayed there, and the strength used against Dabura, actually don't have to be that different.

To be fair, Vegeta did a comparison between teen Gohan and kid Gohan, stating the latter was way, way stronger than the former. It still doesn't mean teen Gohan as a SSJ2 wouldn't be way stronger than himself as a SSJ1. Unless you think there's a rather big difference between standing chi and fighting chi that'd make Gohan (vs Dabra) look more impressive.

Kaioshin just seems to be paranoid in general to anything related to Boo. He had seen Gohan as a SSJ2 and later suggested everyone to gang up on Yakon upon seeing base Goku having a little problem. He also suggests ganging up on Yakon after Vegeta and Goku treating Dabra as no longer a big deal and stating them (well, not Gohan, but worthy note look at Gohan's facial expression when Vegeta is saying this) should be able to take care of Dabra as long as they look up for his saliva... which should obviously have casted Kaioshin's worriness about someone like Yakon. You can chalk it up to bad write or a weakness in Kaioshin's character IMO.

Because he can one shot Freeza? Hah. I have some long post about this somewhere...

Not disagreeing with you... but Goku's reactions towards the Kaioshins being able to fell Freeza in one blow already seems a bit strange considering Goku just heard (and that's what Goku thinks, so it doesn't matter if Kaioshin is or not above Piccolo) Piccolo stating Kaioshin >>> him. Scaling from it, one-shotting Freeza would just be something beyond obvious.

Unless Goku was surprised with Boo beating the Kaioshins rather than them being able to one shot Freeza?

Again, not very impressive when Chaozu could do the same to a Goku that was leagues above him.

Well, Chaozu couldn't paralyze a Nappa who was still << 5000, while himself had the ability to follow Yamcha's movements, therefore putting him way above 610 IMO. So I'd say there's a limit to this paralization technique.

 

[Cell]

Gohan barely broke into SSJ2 tier (as implied by Vegeta's comments at the tournament), so his strength displayed there, and the strength used against Dabura, actually don't have to be that different.

To be fair, Vegeta did a comparison between teen Gohan and kid Gohan, stating the latter was way, way stronger than the former. It still doesn't mean teen Gohan as a SSJ2 wouldn't be way stronger than himself as a SSJ1. Unless you think there's a rather big difference between standing chi and fighting chi that'd make Gohan (vs Dabra) look more impressive.

One day... the community will be enlightened on how the whole SSJ system actually works... but until I can be bothered typing out the research paper required to explain it... -fades away-

Kaioshin just seems to be paranoid in general to anything related to Boo. He had seen Gohan as a SSJ2 and later suggested everyone to gang up on Yakon upon seeing base Goku having a little problem. He also suggests ganging up on Yakon after Vegeta and Goku treating Dabra as no longer a big deal and stating them (well, not Gohan, but worthy note look at Gohan's facial expression when Vegeta is saying this) should be able to take care of Dabra as long as they look up for his saliva... which should obviously have casted Kaioshin's worriness about someone like Yakon. You can chalk it up to bad write or a weakness in Kaioshin's character IMO.

Definitely weakness in character and a lack of research/information on Kaioshin's part. His fear and lack of information all spur on poor decisions and surprise.

Because he can one shot Freeza? Hah. I have some long post about this somewhere...

Not disagreeing with you... but Goku's reactions towards the Kaioshins being able to fell Freeza in one blow already seems a bit strange considering Goku just heard (and that's what Goku thinks, so it doesn't matter if Kaioshin is or not above Piccolo) Piccolo stating Kaioshin >>> him. Scaling from it, one-shotting Freeza would just be something beyond obvious.

Unless Goku was surprised with Boo beating the Kaioshins rather than them being able to one shot Freeza?

Freeza is still an impressive milestone. You'd be hard pressed to justify any character outside of the Saiyans, Piccolo, and a handful of "villains" surpassing him. Goku finding out there were characters stronger than Freeza... and then another one stronger than all of them put together... obviously he'd be a little surprised.

Again, not very impressive when Chaozu could do the same to a Goku that was leagues above him.

Well, Chaozu couldn't paralyze a Nappa who was still << 5000, while himself had the ability to follow Yamcha's movements, therefore putting him way above 610 IMO. So I'd say there's a limit to this paralization technique.

Oh, I certainly believe there's a limit to it... and that Kaioshin was within that limit... if just barely...

 

[ahill1]

One day... the community will be enlightened on how the whole SSJ system actually works... but until I can be bothered typing out the research paper required to explain it... -fades away-

How do you think it works? I have seen some clues that you are totally against multipliers and am honestly interested in a more in depth take on it.

 

[Cell]

One day... the community will be enlightened on how the whole SSJ system actually works... but until I can be bothered typing out the research paper required to explain it... -fades away-

How do you think it works? I have seen some clues that you are totally against multipliers and am honestly interested in a more in depth take on it.

Honestly, it would take a research paper to explain (which is kind of funny because the overall system is simpler than most would believe). Short version: A lot of people have tried to explain it through multipliers, addition models, tiers... they're all wrong... individually.

 

[ahill1]

How would you explain it then?

And what tiers has to do with multipliers? Or better, why using tier is also wrong?

 

[Cell]

How would you explain it then?

And what tiers has to do with multipliers? Or better, why using tier is also wrong?

You're probably thinking of tiers in a different sense. The tiers I speak of is like.. having a fixed maximum limit on Base/SSJ1/SSJ2... and if your power exceeds a certain level, you transform. This is contradicted by Future Trunks vs Future Gohan... and any other Base > SSJ comparison you might want to make.

Some people apply that system instead of multiplier or additive models.

 

[ahill1]

How would you explain it then?

And what tiers has to do with multipliers? Or better, why using tier is also wrong?

You're probably thinking of tiers in a different sense. The tiers I speak of is like.. having a fixed maximum limit on Base/SSJ1/SSJ2... and if your power exceeds a certain level, you transform. This is contradicted by Future Trunks vs Future Gohan... and any other Base > SSJ comparison you might want to make.

Some people apply that system instead of multiplier or additive models.

Yeah, I was thinking of tiers differently, just like "Tier A, Tier B". I like to use multipliers because it makes comparisons between characters so much easier. It also makes possible to do power levels. Can you do a power level list without multipliers or, rather, with varying ones?

 

[Cell]

How would you explain it then?

And what tiers has to do with multipliers? Or better, why using tier is also wrong?

You're probably thinking of tiers in a different sense. The tiers I speak of is like.. having a fixed maximum limit on Base/SSJ1/SSJ2... and if your power exceeds a certain level, you transform. This is contradicted by Future Trunks vs Future Gohan... and any other Base > SSJ comparison you might want to make.

Some people apply that system instead of multiplier or additive models.

Yeah, I was thinking of tiers differently, just like "Tier A, Tier B". I like to use multipliers because it makes comparisons between characters so much easier. It also makes possible to do power levels. Can you do a power level list without multipliers or, rather, with varying ones?

You can do power level lists with, or without, either of those.

 

[ahill1]

Without multipliers? Could you show me an example? I think I'll have a better understanding of what you are saying with numbers.

 

[Cell]

Without multipliers? Could you show me an example? I think I'll have a better understanding of what you are saying with numbers.

Tomorrow when I have some time. Maybe in a diff topic or a PM or something.

 

[ahill1]

Okay.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

That Base Gohan and SSjin Trunks fight is one of the ridiculous I've ever seen on DB especially how Gohan claimed later that Trunks might surpass him in a few months.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

DO you seriously want to keep this thread going?