Cell arc Vegeta

[Future Warrior]

I keep hearing from members on here that Vegeta's character regressed due to inconsistent writing from AT, particularly the Cell arc.

I'm arguing that that's complete horseshit and people who think this either just don't personally like his behavior despite it being a natural progression from his Namek self, or have a very misconstrued view on how character writing works.

 

[Keedounan]

Natural progression? Huh...no.

Namek Arc Vegeta was a pragmatic, clever opportunist who'd kill his opponents without taking any chances. Cell Arc Vegeta is an arrogant idiot who believes Super Saiyan to be invincible despite knowing Super Saiyan Trunks was nothing to the Artificial Humans, and even goes as far as actively helping Cell getting stronger.

Namek Arc Vegeta is a guy who was hoping to see a Super Saiyan, and wasn't obsessively jealous of anyone stronger than him, particularly not Goku. Cell Arc Vegeta...is pretty much the opposite.

 

[Future Warrior]

Namek Arc Vegeta was a pragmatic, clever opportunist who'd kill his opponents without taking any chances. Cell Arc Vegeta is an arrogant idiot who believes Super Saiyan to be invincible despite knowing Super Saiyan Trunks was nothing to the Artificial Humans, and even goes as far as actively helping Cell getting stronger.

Maybe stop to consider why he would have a sudden change of priorities? It's as if people expect characters to stay static throughout their entire lives.

and wasn't obsessively jealous of anyone stronger than him, particularly not Goku.

Get back to me when you reread the Goku vs Vegeta fight in the Saiyan arc.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Get back to me when you reread the Goku vs Vegeta fight in the Saiyan arc.

Keedounan was explicitly referring to Namek Arc Vegeta.

 

[Keedounan]

Maybe stop to consider why he would have a sudden change of priorities? It's as if people expect characters to stay static throughout their entire lives.

Not being static =/= Regressing in personality for no good reason. I have no reason to "stop to consider" anything. You have made the claim that Vegeta's character from Cell arc is natural, you have to establish why you think so, by making actual arguments rather than expecting people to consider your unsaid points.

Get back to me when you reread the Goku vs Vegeta fight in the Saiyan arc.

The fact that you require a single fight that happened two arcs behind the one we're talking about says a lot. Besides, this is factually incorrect. Vegeta may not have liked the fact that Goku overpowered him, but he wasn't obsessed over it either. He doesn't even bring it up Goku's strength nor is he even on his mind in Namek arc. Even when Goku surpassed him in Namek arc on two occasions, he wasn't even close to be as upset as Cell Arc Vegeta was, if he was at all.

 

[Future Warrior]

Get back to me when you reread the Goku vs Vegeta fight in the Saiyan arc.

Keedounan was explicitly referring to Namek Arc Vegeta.

Why does it matter? It's the same character.

 

[Keedounan]

Get back to me when you reread the Goku vs Vegeta fight in the Saiyan arc.

Keedounan was explicitly referring to Namek Arc Vegeta.

Why does it matter? It's the same character.

So is Cell Arc Vegeta. Yet the point is whether or Cell Arc Vegeta is consistent on his overall character. Thus making a distinction of Namek Arc Vegeta is pertinent too. So yeah, it does matter.

Even Saiyan Arc Vegeta wasn't even close to be as obsessively jealous or arrogant to the point of stupidity as his Cell Arc counterpart is.

 

[Future Warrior]

Not being static =/= Regressing in personality for no good reason. I have no reason to "stop to consider" anything. You have made the claim that Vegeta's character from Cell arc is natural, you have to establish why you think so, by making actual arguments rather than expecting people to consider your unsaid points.

Ok, fair enough.

Vegeta during the Namek arc was cautious and patient because he's greatly aware of how dangerous Freeza and his army could be. He's willing to take precautions in order to gain the best chances of getting his wish for immortality. He has no reason to kid himself that he can steamroll his way with no fear when he's been his underling for pretty much his entire life. But we can still see a glimpse of his cocky and arrogant attitude when he believes himself to be far stronger than Freeza, until he gets quickly dominated with ease.

Witnessing SSJ Trunks and Goku showing off power far greater than his own despite the latter being a lower-class warrior was an even greater insult to himself. You could argue all you want that he doesn't care whether or not Goku is stronger than him or not, but the Saiyan arc clearly demonstrates how he feels on the matter. Just to prove my point, I'll include anime filler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O5wnzrXUlY. By the time the artificial humans have arrived, he's become a SSJ and believes himself to be the strongest warrior in the universe. Even Piccolo thinks he's surpassed Goku. From that point on, he's constantly trying to prove himself that no one is better than him just to sate his own ego. His decisions are ''dumb'' but they are all due to his narcissistic nature. If he wasn't a SSJ at any point in the arc I honestly don't think he would make any of the reckless decisions he made.

DB isn't complex but the characters are very true to human nature, more so than many other anime I've seen.

 

[Keedounan]

Ok, fair enough.

Vegeta during the Namek arc was cautious and patient because he's greatly aware of how dangerous Freeza and his army could be. He's willing to take precautions in order to gain the best chances of getting his wish for immortality. He has no reason to kid himself that he can steamroll his way with no fear when he's been his underling for pretty much his entire life. But we can still see a glimpse of his cocky and arrogant attitude when he believes himself to be far stronger than Freeza, until he gets quickly dominated with ease.

Witnessing SSJ Trunks and Goku showing off power far greater than his own despite the latter being a lower-class warrior was an even greater insult to himself. You could argue all you want that he doesn't care whether or not Goku is stronger than him or not, but the Saiyan arc clearly demonstrates how he feels on the matter. Just to prove my point, I'll include anime filler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O5wnzrXUlY. By the time the artificial humans have arrived, he's become a SSJ and believes himself to be the strongest warrior in the universe. Even Piccolo thinks he's surpassed Goku. From that point on, he's constantly trying to prove himself that no one is better than him just to sate his own ego. His decisions are ''dumb'' but they are all due to his narcissistic nature. If he wasn't a SSJ at any point in the arc I honestly don't think he would make any of the reckless decisions he made.

DB isn't complex but the characters are very true to human nature, more so than many other anime I've seen.

While it's true that Vegeta took those precautions because he knew how dangerous Freeza was, we also caught a glimpse of his pragmatic nature back in Saiyan arc. When he sensed that Goku was at 5,000, he ordered Nappa to kill Piccolo and the others to keep them from being able to help him, as well as shaking him up. Also, he and Nappa picked a Full Moon Day in case they would end up having trouble (which they did).

Plus, Cell Arc Vegeta already knew how dangerous the Androids were, especially when Trunks explicitely told him so. He should have known that getting Super Saiyan wouldn't guarantee that he'd win. Now, he did get cocky, but never to the point of actively helping his opponent get stronger out of suicidal overconfidence.

As for "Taking Goku's strength as an insult" point, while true, again, Vegeta didn't actually make it an obsession until Cell Arc. Being the strongest in the universe sure is a consistent goal he has, but the consistent jealousy he had over Goku was established in this arc.

 

[Future Warrior]

While it's true that Vegeta took those precautions because he knew how dangerous Freeza was, we also caught a glimpse of his pragmatic nature back in Saiyan arc. When he sensed that Goku was at 5,000, he ordered Nappa to kill Piccolo and the others to keep them from being able to help him, as well as shaking him up. Also, he and Nappa picked a Full Moon Day in case they would end up having trouble (which they did).

Plus, Cell Arc Vegeta already knew how dangerous the Androids were, especially when Trunks explicitely told him so. He should have known that getting Super Saiyan wouldn't guarantee that he'd win. Now, he did get cocky, but never to the point of actively helping his opponent get stronger out of suicidal overconfidence.

These examples you brought forth doesn't help your case because his ego wasn't as extravagant as it was later on due to pent up aggression from Goku seemingly always having leverage on him.

My entire point is that I agree that Vegeta makes reckless decisions in the Cell arc, but I disagree with the people that deem it bad writing because they think it's inconsistent.

Also, I think it's a bit dishonest to say Vegeta lost all sense of his pragmatism. He bluffed his way out of a fight against #20 because he realized he wouldn't have won with the amount of energy he had. Piccolo proceeds to then call him a fighting genius after that.

As for "Taking Goku's strength as an insult" point, while true, again, Vegeta didn't actually make it an obsession until Cell Arc. Being the strongest in the universe sure is a consistent goal he has, but the consistent jealousy he had over Goku was established in this arc.

It wasn't an obsession to him prior because the amount of time that Goku had an advantage over him was very little. Not only did he have other priorities to care about, but he was gaining constant Zenkai boosts that probably put him above his rival for the vast majority of his time on Namek.

 

[sei'taer]

Natural progression? Huh...no.

Namek Arc Vegeta was a pragmatic, clever opportunist who'd kill his opponents without taking any chances. Cell Arc Vegeta is an arrogant idiot who believes Super Saiyan to be invincible despite knowing Super Saiyan Trunks was nothing to the Artificial Humans, and even goes as far as actively helping Cell getting stronger.

Namek Arc Vegeta is a guy who was hoping to see a Super Saiyan, and wasn't obsessively jealous of anyone stronger than him, particularly not Goku. Cell Arc Vegeta...is pretty much the opposite.

And Namek arc vegeta didn't believe he was turning into an invincible Super Saiyan the whole latter half of the arc? That let furiza transform because he was positive that he wouldn't get that much stronger? That got super enraged the entire fight in the arc previously that a simple low class saiyan like goku had surpassed him?

I don't see how cell arc vegeta is any different than any of the characterization he'd had previously.

 

[Papasmurf]

Tbf, letting Freeza transform is a whole different ball game from literally letting Cell absorb #18 to reach his final form. Freeza can transform at will just like Zarbon, so egging him on to transform is just hastening the inevitable. Helping Cell... is just suicide.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Completely agree with OP.

Also something I want to add. Vegeta knew who he was dealing with during Namek arc but that wasn't the case during Android Arc. I mean who can actually believe a low technological scientist from Earth could produce some robots/cyborgs that surpasses Freeza? Also

 

[ahill1]

Tbf, letting Freeza transform is a whole different ball game from literally letting Cell absorb #18 to reach his final form. Freeza can transform at will just like Zarbon, so egging him on to transform is just hastening the inevitable. Helping Cell... is just suicide.

True.

I think the point Kee brought up about Vegeta wishing to off the Z warriors before Goku got there is a good one that establishes Vegeta's pragmatism didn't come up solely because of Freeza. Vegeta also insisted Kuririn had to injury him before Freeza transformed. He knew he'd become a lot stronger and likely (on his mind) reach the SSJ, but he still didn't want to play "let's see" and wished to confront Freeza on his third form. You could play the SSJ card and say that the possession of the state justified his less cautious nature when letting Cell transfofm, but it still was pretty stupid seeing as he has sensed Cell's chi in the form prior and seen how much he has progressed once transforming, and the gap he had on Cell wasn't that big seeing Cell's punch could lean him back and draw blood from him... a gap wayyyy smaller than the progression he has seen from Cell. He was pretty stupid.

 

[Future Warrior]

You could play the SSJ card and say that the possession of the state justified his less cautious nature when letting Cell transfofm, but it still was pretty stupid seeing as he has sensed Cell's chi in the form prior and seen how much he has progressed once transforming, and the gap he had on Cell wasn't that big seeing Cell's punch could lean him back and draw blood from him... a gap wayyyy smaller than the progression he has seen from Cell. He was pretty stupid.

What's even being argued here?

Also, Vegeta was far beyond Cell's 2nd form, but that's besides the point.

 

[ahill1]

I'm saying that Vegeta's decision was rather stupid all things considered. There was a big gap, but Vegeta has seen how much Cell has changed since he sensed his previous iteration. So risking all things when the gap was likely less than 2x was really stupid, and clashes with his pragmatism at trying to hasten his power up to before Freeza's final act.

 

[Future Warrior]

I'm saying that Vegeta's decision was rather stupid all things considered. There was a big gap, but Vegeta has seen how much Cell has changed since he sensed his previous iteration. So risking all things when the gap was likely less than 2x was really stupid, and clashes with his pragmatism at trying to hasten his power up to before Freeza's final act.

Sorry, but you're parroting points that I've already addressed.

 

[ahill1]

I'm saying that Vegeta's decision was rather stupid all things considered. There was a big gap, but Vegeta has seen how much Cell has changed since he sensed his previous iteration. So risking all things when the gap was likely less than 2x was really stupid, and clashes with his pragmatism at trying to hasten his power up to before Freeza's final act.

Sorry, but you're parroting points that I've already addressed.

So Vegeta's SSJ makes his demeanor consistent with what he's already previously shown? Nevermind the fact that he has seen it being surpassed twice. He understood the SSJ wasn't an unbeatable form when #18 beat some sense into him. He has achieved a new state, but the "SSJ is the strongest warrior" lore was already beaten by that point. So no, it doesn't explain his differring and clashing decisions. We don't expect characters to be static, sure. But when a character shows a difference of attitude in seemingly similar situations, or a change in nature with apparently not enough backing such up, it's fair to treat it as an inconsistency in characterisation.

 

[Future Warrior]

I'm not saying just by the fact that he's a SSJ makes him arrogant. His actions are driven by his desire to prove himself, which was a trait that was only exacerbated by the time Goku had arrived back from Yardrat. I don't know how you read my posts and missed this point.

 

[ahill1]

I'm not saying just by the fact that he's a SSJ makes him arrogant. His actions are driven by his desire to prove himself, which was a trait that was only exacerbated by the time Goku had arrived back from Yardrat. I don't know how you read my posts and missed this point.

Wouldn't defeating Semi Cell already prove that point though? And Cell stated that Vegeta is itching for a challenge since he is a Saiyajin. His Saiyajin nature in wishing for a challenge was brought up, not his necessity to prove a point. Plus, when he thought he had achieved the SSJ against Freeza, he left out a "it was me after all, Kakarrot!!" while attacking Freeza, so he was in some sort of conflict with Goku there already.