Cell Games Base Trunks vs Android Saga SSJ Vegeta

[SSJ2]

Who wins?

 

[GSM123]

This guy can’t even kill 50% Freeza, let alone a Super Saiyan.

 

[SSJ2]

If Base Goten and Trunks are on par with 18 I find that hard to believe.

 

[GSM123]

Good thing they didn't get past barely blocking her held back punches then...

 

[SSJ2]

Vegeta was confident in winning the tournament in Base. The kids fighting on par with 18 backs that up. Not to mention the Daizenshuu states that 18 and the kids were on par with one another.

18 pulling her punches is not supported by anything in the manga from what I can tell. From the very beginning of the fight she acknowledges that Mighty Mask is unusually strong and looks quite serious. When she smashes Mighty Mask into the ring from 100 feet in the air is she also pulling her punches? That would have killed any normal beings. 18’s overall demeanour and the vigor of her attacks show that she is not holding back.

 

[Pyro]

In every generation, there is at least one voice to rise up and be the contrarian. This generation, it is GreatSaiyaman.

 

[GSM123]

Vegeta was confident in winning the tournament in Base. The kids fighting on par with 18 backs that up. Not to mention the Daizenshuu states that 18 and the kids were on par with one another.

18 pulling her punches is not supported by anything in the manga from what I can tell. From the very beginning of the fight she acknowledges that Mighty Mask is unusually strong and looks quite serious. When she smashes Mighty Mask into the ring from 100 feet in the air is she also pulling her punches? That would have killed any normal beings. 18’s overall demeanour and the vigor of her attacks show that she is not holding back.

Vegeta never even expressed any desire to win the Budokai. He joined merely to fight Gohan (And later Goku) and couldn't care less about the others.

#18 doesn't recognize Mighty Mask's power until the very end, and even so doesn't recognize him as anything beyond "Unusually strong" rather than showing worries about his power. She maintains her composure throughout while the boys are sweating and yelling at each other. Slamming Mighty Mask against the ground and blasting him doesn't require her to use anywhere her full power, it's a common feat to do and survive such attacks since Early DB. The Daizenshuu 7 entry would pertain to a battle where #18 didn't use her best, not to mention it's a stretch saying they were even when the boys were in the defensive for most of it.

The reason she would be pulling her punches is that she wants to win the prize money, what requires her not to kill anyone. Kuririn also asked her to not kill anyone.

 

[SSJ2]

So he’s guaranteed to fight Gohan and Goku in a tournament with 8 participants? What if he draws 18 in the first round? He says he will still have the upper hand. I see no reason why that wouldn’t apply to all of the participants.

I’m not sure we are reading the same fight.

Immediately we are shown that both the kids and 18 are taking this fight seriously. She had already taken note that Mighty Mask was a tough individual.

Spoiler

18 relentlessly barrages the boys with attacks, refusing to let up. Toriyama also felt the need to tell us that the suit was hindering the boys’ ability to fight.

Spoiler

18 takes advantage of their lack of movement and smashes them into the ring. From what we are directly shown, 18 does not appear to be holding back.

She looks troubled by her opponent. She even felt the need to compliment his power despite how awkward they looked in battle.
After fighting Mighty Mask for so long, I’d have to think she’d have enough of a grasp on his power to easily throw him out of the ring had she been holding back.

She is exerting effort and vigor into her attacks that would not be necessary if she was holding back. This is what I see in the manga. Your theory is going to be a hard sell unless I get objective evidence from the manga that proves 18 was holding back. As of now, I don’t see any.

 

[GSM123]

So he’s guaranteed to fight Gohan and Goku in a tournament with 8 participants? What if he draws 18 in the first round? He says he will still have the upper hand. I see no reason why that wouldn’t apply to all of the participants.

I’m not sure we are reading the same fight.

Spoiler

Immediately we are shown that both the kids and 18 are taking this fight seriously. She had already taken note that Mighty Mask was a tough individual.

Spoiler

18 relentlessly barrages the boys with attacks, refusing to let up. Toriyama also felt the need to tell us that the suit was hindering the boys’ ability to fight.

Spoiler

18 takes advantage of their lack of movement and smashes them into the ring. From what we are directly shown, 18 does not appear to be holding back.

Spoiler

She looks troubled by her opponent. She even felt the need to compliment his power despite how awkward they looked in battle.
After fighting Mighty Mask for so long, I’d have to think she’d have enough of a grasp on his power to easily throw him out of the ring had she been holding back.

She is exerting effort and vigor into her attacks that would not be necessary if she was holding back. This is what I see in the manga. Your theory is going to be a hard sell unless I get objective evidence from the manga that proves 18 was holding back. As of now, I don’t see any.

He actually ended up being matched against Goku on the first match, so that wouldn't be a issue to him. Not like it's likely he'd follow the rule when not even Gohan bothered to when faced by Kibito.

I don't see how you could read this as #18 going serious. Her initial remark is made based on seeing Mighty Mask one shot an average Joe (What doesn't even remotely require #18 to use full power), and on both statements she's just talking about how he's stronger than he looks: In spite of such short arms, he's got a pretty powerful punch that can incapacitate Budokai fighters. The fight itself doesn't help portraying her as going all out: She keeps her composure throughout the fight in contrast to the boys quickly losing their cool and becoming desperate. Her act of smashing them against the ground definitely seems to be moving things to the next level, but still nowhere near her best when even 22nd Goku could survive being slammed against the arena.

Spoiler

Perhaps had the fight continued #18 could've found enough strength to take them out, after all her confidence upon seeing the boys transform would imply she's got a lot of power in the tank.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Alongside what SS2 said, there's the other glaring question for those going with the "#18 was holding back" argument - why didn't #18 use enough power to KO the kids? It was made clear not just in the battle royale, but also in the fight against Vegeta, that she can easily control how much effort she puts out depending on the opponent. If believing her full power to still be far above the boys, there's absolutely no reason she couldn't use just enough to knock them out without causing severe damage.

Vegeta would most definitely factor in #18 in his statement. Goku and Gohan may have been his main objectives, but Vegeta wanting to establish his dominance over any fighter is one of his key character traits. He'd have no reason to exclude a relatively strong fighter who once humiliated him.

 

[SSJ2]

You claim 18's #1 priority is winning the prize money. What purpose does it serve to "play around" with Mighty Mask? As I said, she had been fighting Mighty Mask long enough to have a grasp on his power. She was confident enough that slamming him into the ring wouldn't be enough to kill him. Why not use full power, subdue the boys and toss them out of the ring like the trash they are?

Like I said before, unless I get statements or am shown objective proof of 18 holding back, it will be a hard sell.

1. Boys and 18 take note of each other's power right off the bat.

2. 18 attacks the kids and puts them on the defensive. This should be enough for her to understand their power.

3. The kids mention multiple times how the suit was hampering their movement and coordination. 18 gets a surprise attack off due to this and slams the boys into the ring.

4. 18 looks troubled about Might Mask at the end of their fight, and focuses on his power and awkwardness again. These things should be irrelevant to her if she was strong enough to 1 shot them. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[GSM123]

You claim 18's #1 priority is winning the prize money. What purpose does it serve to "play around" with Mighty Mask? As I said, she had been fighting Mighty Mask long enough to have a grasp on his power. She was confident enough that slamming him into the ring wouldn't be enough to kill him. Why not use full power, subdue the boys and toss them out of the ring like the trash they are?

Like I said before, unless I get statements or am shown objective proof of 18 holding back, it will be a hard sell.

1. Boys and 18 take note of each other's power right off the bat.

2. 18 attacks the kids and puts them on the defensive. This should be enough for her to understand their power.

3. The kids mention multiple times how the suit was hampering their movement and coordination. 18 gets a surprise attack off due to this and slams the boys into the ring.

4. 18 looks troubled about Might Mask at the end of their fight, and focuses on his power and awkwardness again. These things should be irrelevant to her if she was strong enough to 1 shot them. It just doesn't make sense.

18 is not “playing around” with the boys. She admittedly finds hard to hold back, and would be skating on thin ice to defeat Mighty Mask without lethally wounding him.

Chapter: 431 (DBZ 237), P13.5-7, P14.2-6
Context: taking the punch machine preliminaries test
Kuririn: “Hey, don’t put too much power into it! You’ll break the machine.”
No.18: “I know.” *she hits it*
Referee guy: “Se-se-se-774!? I-I’m sorry, it seems to be malfunctioning! Wait a minute.”
Kuririn: “That’s why I told you not to overdo it!”
No.18: “Be quiet! It’s hard to hold back!”
Referee guy: “It-it seems to be fixed. Try again. *she hits again* …203 points…!?”

Throughout the fight she’s more concerned about Mighty Mask’s identity than the fight itself, what’s pretty revealing about how much of a threat he possessed. She even maintains her composure upon seeing the boys go SSJ and only thinks things are getting out of hand when they blast her with a suppressed blast not fast enough to knock 18 out nor strong enough for her to tell if their powers really surpass her.

The Budokai is a setting of mostly average humans that wouldn’t allow the Z Fighters to use full power, even 23rd Piccolo proved himself a threat to the entire Papaya Island at full power and Goku was using a “match power” as early as the 22nd. One does not need a statement to deduce 18 isn’t fighting at her best, specially when her opponent isn’t that strong (As you pointed out, the costume hinders the boys greatly) and she didn’t even bother going all out on a fight for her life against Vegeta until he asked her.

Alongside what SS2 said, there's the other glaring question for those going with the "#18 was holding back" argument - why didn't #18 use enough power to KO the kids? It was made clear not just in the battle royale, but also in the fight against Vegeta, that she can easily control how much effort she puts out depending on the opponent. If believing her full power to still be far above the boys, there's absolutely no reason she couldn't use just enough to knock them out without causing severe damage.

Vegeta would most definitely factor in #18 in his statement. Goku and Gohan may have been his main objectives, but Vegeta wanting to establish his dominance over any fighter is one of his key character traits. He'd have no reason to exclude a relatively strong fighter who once humiliated him.

As I posted above to SSJ2, 18 finds hard to hold back. Neither of the situations earlier required much Ki control: Against Jewel she just stood her leg out and he ran into it, and against Vegeta she was just fighting without putting much effort. Her perfomance against Vegeta would actually imply she tends to not go all out, as even when Vegeta was trying to kill her and had the upperhand on the first round she didn’t fight to her best until Vegeta asked.

That would be assuming Vegeta knows 18 is fighting though. Another character trait of Vegeta is that he doesn’t always sticks to his words or fights fairy, thing of when he killed Nappa or threw dirt on Zarbon’s eyes, for example. Goku and Gohan are the ones he wants to fight the most, he wouldn’t hesitate if 18 or Piccolo stood on his way.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

As I posted above to SSJ2, 18 finds hard to hold back. Neither of the situations earlier required much Ki control: Against Jewel she just stood her leg out and he ran into it, and against Vegeta she was just fighting without putting much effort. Her perfomance against Vegeta would actually imply she tends to not go all out, as even when Vegeta was trying to kill her and had the upperhand on the first round she didn’t fight to her best until Vegeta asked.

Yet it's shown she can easily control the amount of effort she outputs. That said, there's little reason she couldn't output enough effort to end the fight quickly if what you say is true.
There's also a clear difference in personality and motivation between #18's Cell Arc and Boo Arc self. The former is as carefree as her brother when it comes to a fight and is fine messing around, whereas the latter has her family and their financial situation as her core motivation.

That would be assuming Vegeta knows 18 is fighting though.

Considering he knows more than anyone how she's a capable fighter in her own right and (from his experience) enjoys such things, there's no reason he wouldn't assume she was.

Another character trait of Vegeta is that he doesn’t always sticks to his words or fights fairy, thing of when he killed Nappa or threw dirt on Zarbon’s eyes, for example. Goku and Gohan are the ones he wants to fight the most, he wouldn’t hesitate if 18 or Piccolo stood on his way.

I agree, yet Vegeta specified that this rule didn't change his standing. If this was indeed something that hindered his chances, he'd outright refute it from the get-go, be it internally or externally.

 

[SSJ2]

No offence meant GSM but I feel like this debate leads to a lot of repeating points. I don’t have much more to say on this subject. But in brief..

18 said it was hard to hold back to human levels when punching the machine. Obviously she doesn’t want to do what Vegeta did and destroy the machine. Given the initial clash with Mighty Mask, it was clear that she was fighting well beyond the human level given the crowd’s reaction. Mr. Satan, the strongest human on Earth was completely floored by their initial clash. If 18 was trying to hold back to such levels, that reaction wouldn’t have Been necessary. She knew immediately that Mighty Mask was not on the human level and treated him accordingly.

You say she would be walking in thin ice by non-lethally one shotting him. What? Slamming a human head first into a ring from 100 feet in the air would not qualify as walking on thin ice?

Why doesn’t she fly over to Mighty Mask and strangle him until he is unconscious? Or simply grab him and escort him out of the ring. Why would she waste time actually fighting him if she could do the following? If she is so focused on the prize money then she should be eliminating any and all chances of defeat. That would mean finishing the fight as soon as possible, which she chose not to do. She continued to engage the boys in meaningless attacks that were completely unnecessary for her goal.


Claiming that she is holding back is quite an assumption in all honestly, one not supported by direct evidence.

 

[GSM123]

Yet it's shown she can easily control the amount of effort she outputs. That said, there's little reason she couldn't output enough effort to end the fight quickly if what you say is true.
There's also a clear difference in personality and motivation between #18's Cell Arc and Boo Arc self. The former is as carefree as her brother when it comes to a fight and is fine messing around, whereas the latter has her family and their financial situation as her core motivation.

She can, but she's not as trained as the Z Fighters to change her power outputs so easily, specially when she can't sense Ki to adjust her power to his opponent's, and this is a pretty big factor when she can't kill her opponent. What we see in the Android Arc is merely a difference between casual fight (Or sparring, if you will) and serious, bloodlusted fight.

Considering he knows more than anyone how she's a capable fighter in her own right and (from his experience) enjoys such things, there's no reason he wouldn't assume she was.

I don't think 18 ever expressed much enjoyment in fighting for the sake of fighting to Vegeta. Rather she seems more concerned about humiliating Vegeta and the others.

And like you said earlier, we should take her character development into account: 18 is now a housewife and doesn't take pleasure on screwing around anymore.

I agree, yet Vegeta specified that this rule didn't change his standing. If this was indeed something that hindered his chances, he'd outright refute it from the get-go, be it internally or externally.

His standing in comparison to the Saiyans, who are the only two people he want to fight (Specially Goku). Also, what else would you expect him to say? He even tried to argue they should just kill the annoying reporters. Sounds like he just said that to make Gohan shut up.

No offence meant GSM but I feel like this debate leads to a lot of repeating points. I don’t have much more to say on this subject. But in brief..

18 said it was hard to hold back to human levels when punching the machine. Obviously she doesn’t want to do what Vegeta did and destroy the machine. Given the initial clash with Mighty Mask, it was clear that she was fighting well beyond the human level given the crowd’s reaction. Mr. Satan, the strongest human on Earth was completely floored by their initial clash. If 18 was trying to hold back to such levels, that reaction wouldn’t have Been necessary. She knew immediately that Mighty Mask was not on the human level and treated him accordingly.

You say she would be walking in thin ice by non-lethally one shotting him. What? Slamming a human head first into a ring from 100 feet in the air would not qualify as walking on thin ice?

Why doesn’t she fly over to Mighty Mask and strangle him until he is unconscious? Or simply grab him and escort him out of the ring. Why would she waste time actually fighting him if she could do the following? If she is so focused on the prize money then she should be eliminating any and all chances of defeat. That would mean finishing the fight as soon as possible, which she chose not to do. She continued to engage the boys in meaningless attacks that were completely unnecessary for her goal.


Claiming that she is holding back is quite an assumption in all honestly, one not supported by direct evidence.

Maybe, but this is more of a flaw on the debaters than the debate itself. I mean, a strong piece of evidence - 18 maintaining her composure upon seeing the SSJ boys and only considering things are getting dangerous when they show power arguably not even on pair with her shows - was just overlooked by you. Rather, you chose to say for a third time that nothing implies 18 held back with no regard to how stupid it sounds. Are you trying to tell me knocking someone against the ground means going all out?

SSJ2, can we at least agree she wasn't going all out on that first panel? She definitely wasn't on human level as she had just acknowledged Mighty Mask isn't any human, but to say she'd go all out from the start is ludicrous. From my end it reads like her efforts were gradually increased - You can see Trunks doesn't get sweaty and desperated until a couple panels into the fight or so.

Why didn't she grab Satan and threw him out of bounds later? Why didn't she strangle Jewel until he was unconscious earlier? There's no reason to ask these kind of questions when it's simply not shown to be something she would do.

Also, let me use your logic for a second: If it's that quick and easy to tell how strong someone is, then why didn't the boys go SSJ right off the bat? Or at least when they first flew instead of trying to hit her again?

 

[SSJ2]

Maybe, but this is more of a flaw on the debaters than the debate itself. I mean, a strong piece of evidence - 18 maintaining her composure upon seeing the SSJ boys and only considering things are getting dangerous when they show power arguably not even on pair with her shows - was just overlooked by you. Rather, you chose to say for a third time that nothing implies 18 held back with no regard to how stupid it sounds. Are you trying to tell me knocking someone against the ground means going all out?

Nah, it's more-so that I have no desire to waste my time in a debate where neither side is going to budge. I've been doing this shit for 7 years and wasting time is no longer an interest of mine. But I'll bite.

I can easily argue that 18 remained composed due to finding out the identity of Mighty Mask. In fact, her initial reaction to them transforming was pure astonishment. 2 pages later when Trunks fires a suppressed ki blast, it is clear that 18 had no idea how strong the boys truly were.

"You've gotta be kidding me! That speed... That power... Are those twits really that good?"

That right there tells you that 18 did not have a grasp on their power. Her initial composure is due to knowing Mighty Mask's identity, and underestimating the kids overall power. She immediately lost her composure when Trunks fired that blast as she understood her place on the food chain.

SSJ2, can we at least agree she wasn't going all out on that first panel? She definitely wasn't on human level as she had just acknowledged Mighty Mask isn't any human, but to say she'd go all out from the start is ludicrous. From my end it reads like her efforts were gradually increased - You can see Trunks doesn't get sweaty and desperated until a couple panels into the fight or so.

Perhaps so. That is a concession I can make, but I think we are having a difference in understanding here. 18 might not be bloodlusted and using 100% effort, but that doesn't mean that she is suppressed/not utilizing all of her power. Even in the first clash, she looks serious and tries to push Mighty Mask back with her barrage. I find it odd that she is utilizing an effort level exactly on par with Mighty Mask from the get-go. How did she know exactly how strong he would be prior to fighting? She rushed in and they had a pretty even clash. As I said before, this should have given her enough of an understanding of his power to throttle up and dispose of him.

Why didn't she grab Satan and threw him out of bounds later? Why didn't she strangle Jewel until he was unconscious earlier? There's no reason to ask these kind of questions when it's simply not shown to be something she would do.

Don't see why either of these examples are relevant. She immediately disposed of Jewel with a lot of force. She also kept Satan alive as part of her scheme to get more money. Not to mention Jewel and Satan were established as fodder. So ya... What I'm talking about is in reference to the battle that we saw, not hypotheticals that have no impact on Mighty Mask vs 18. She should have disposed of Mighty Mask exactly like she did to Jewel imo if she had the ability. CC has already explained that she has shown the ability to change her effort level at will, so I don't see why she would be clueless here. She vigorously attacked him from the start and had a slight upper hand. All she had to do was slightly increase her power to take him out, but it did not happen. I'm asking these questions in regards to what we are shown. She is shown to dispose of the trash immediately, so that should apply to the kids too.

Also, she's not willing to one shot a fighter in her way of the prize money, but she was willing to embarrass herself and put on a show with Mr. Satan to get some extra cash?

Also, let me use your logic for a second: If it's that quick and easy to tell how strong someone is, then why didn't the boys go SSJ right off the bat? Or at least when they first flew instead of trying to hit her again?

They didn't use Super Saiyan because there was a rule put in place not to use it lol. They tried everything in Base, and when it proved they were at a slight disadvantage, they had to transform. The kids could tell how strong 18 was. Considering their repeated comments about the disadvantage of the suit, it seems to me like they feel as though they would have performed much better without it. Either way, I am arguing that the base kids are on par with 18. They don't need to transform on that premise alone.

 

[GSM123]

Perhaps so. That is a concession I can make, but I think we are having a difference in understanding here.

Given you admited neither of us is going to budge (What makes me question why this thread was created in the first place, but nvm) I'm glad with this conclusion. But there still are a couple things I want to point out...

18 being able to figure out how strong Mighty Mask is that quickly doesn't seem something based on any evidence to me. This is something done often by experienced fighters after either paying attention at their moves (e.g. Vegeta and Goku on Dabra) or actually trading blows with them (e.g. Ginyu vs Goku). 18 did neither at first, and even when she actually got to bump fists with Trunks it wouldn't be representative of his full power thanks to the suit limiting his movements.

The SSJ rule wasn't a thing anymore. They already blew it and so did Gohan, not to mention the adults were gone and nobody could know they were Super Saiyans as they were disguised.

Also, I just noticed that if she has enough strength to slam them against the right, she also had the strength to knock them down in a way that they could land out of bounds... Could argue she really wasn't dead set on winning right away, but it's probably just a dumb decision.

 

[Six Trails]

I think Vegeta is marginally stronger but Trunks could possibly win because of untrained Super Saiyan's strain.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

In my books, it's an even fight and Getes wins with skill.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

100% Freeza > Base Saiyans