Cell vs Light Grenade

ahill1

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p123 said:
Yea. We are a bit confused because him avoiding 17's attacks, you'd think he'd just tank them if he was that strong. But yea, perhaps, just maybe, no one has cause more damage with one punch, than Cell did on Piccolo. I think maybe Reecome v Gohan might be the only other case. And that's a 3x gap as well. Cell is nonchalantly wrecking Piccolo in a way he's never been handled in the entire manga. Crazy stuff huh?

@ahill

Cell clearly doesn't want to take out 17 or Piccolo with one shot. He could if he wanted to, but he's playing with his food. You don't eat a Light Grenade to the face and have no damage and not be able to one shot Piccolo. That wouldn't make sense.
There's nothing implying Cell was going easy with Piccolo and #17 to begin with. I just think one shot gaps don't follow a linear pattern. For instance, Freeza couldn't take out base Goku with a hit. He could have been initially holding back, but he was also rather pissed after blocking Goku's Kaioken x20 KMHMH, so there's no reason he'd hold back his headbutt. If base Goku could withstand a headbutt from Freeza and not get knocked out, so can Piccolo.
 

p123

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Cell is super nonchalant, he's definitely taking it easy on Piccolo and 17, but yes, one shot gaps happen more on a plot based situation than anything. Goku couldn't be knocked out in a corner off screen when his job was to get angry and go Super Saiyan.
 

Victorious

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Who says 50% Freeza couldn't taken out base Goku with one hit? Lol..Uhh he could have one shotted KKx10 Goku if he wanted. Of all the villains Freeza is certainly the most evil and sadistic...he enjoys torturing his opponents and picking on weaklings. After Goku goes SSJ and starts smack him around he even blames himself for toying with Goku earlier. Its not like Freeza knew how SSJ works or that Saiyan need some inner rage to trigger it.
 

ahill1

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Victorious said:
Who says 50% Freeza couldn't taken out base Goku with one hit? Lol..Uhh he could have one shotted KKx10 Goku if he wanted. Of all the villains Freeza is certainly the most evil and sadistic...he enjoys torturing his opponents and picking on weaklings. After Goku goes SSJ and starts smack him around he even blames himself for toying with Goku earlier. Its not like Freeza knew how SSJ works or that Saiyan need some inner rage to trigger it.
The fact that he blamed himself (I am even skeptical to the existence of such line) only means that he could have used an attack or a technique that would have killed Goku. He could have pierced him through his neck, he could have taken out his heart à.la Killua, he could have strangled him unconscious, or used a chi blast... yet he only resorted to melee attacks to the face and to the gut that DID NOT take out Goku... and not even a headbutt from a Freeza with no indication of being holding back could take Goku out. So unless you prove to me that Freeza was holding back in all those attacks and when headbutting Goku as well, then there's no reason Piccolo SHOULD have been one-shotted. One shot gaps aren't the end be all and they vary according to the instance.

Goku SSJ couldn't one shot Freeza 50% either and the gap there was more than 2x. If Goku's facial expression is anything to go by, he was using effort to attack him and wasn't just nonchalantly hitting him... yet Freeza wasn't knocked out unconscious. It isn't a constant thing.
 

p123

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Oh Piccolo should have been one shotted by Cell for sure, if he so chose so. We can see based on the damage caused by Cell and his lack of effort in doing so. Not being knocked out is merely plot based. We all know Freeza should have KO'd Goku there, but the story wouldn't allow for it. Power levels intends to bring in a realistic approach to what would happen.

Raditz easily KO'd Goku, so it's not like Goku is special. Neither is Vegeta, he was KO'd by Zarbon, rather quickly, with only a minimal power advantage.

So all in all, if plot wasn't affecting the situation, Cell would be able to one shot KO both 17 and Piccolo. Hell, if he really put his all into it, who knows, perhaps he can one shot kill them, not just KO them.
 

ahill1

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p123 said:
Oh Piccolo should have been one shotted by Cell for sure, if he so chose so. We can see based on the damage caused by Cell and his lack of effort in doing so. Not being knocked out is merely plot based. We all know Freeza should have KO'd Goku there, but the story wouldn't allow for it. Power levels intends to bring in a realistic approach to what would happen.
Exactly, it's all plot based. Even though that LOGICALLY should be the case, it isn't what happened. Whenever you face an instance of a character not being one-shotted you'd have to add a "he was holding back" just so one shot gaps can be kept consistent. I don't think it works that way. Sure, the Ginyus were knocked out by Goku when the gap there was not even 2x... yet we have examples of someone at less than 50% not being one-shotted, meaning one-shot gaps aren't consistent. You can't just add a "he is holding back" because you feel the character should be one-shotted.
 

p123

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Oh I don't. If I feel it's merely plot based, I say it. I am focused on accuracy and accuracy alone. Throwing out excuses for bullshit is a waste of my time. What I focus on is the reality of the situation. And the reality of the situation is that Cell is not trying very hard at all against Piccolo. He basically wastes him without lifting a finger. From what I can see, Cell can easily and I mean EASILY one shot KO Piccolo with complete ease, should he decide to use all of his power in an attack. If 17 can almost punch a whole in pre Kami Piccolo, Cell should be able to punch through his body for sure.

Cell is taking it easy on Piccolo, yet still completely wrecking him. It's one of the largest gaps in the series.
 

ahill1

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p123 said:
Oh I don't. If I feel it's merely plot based, I say it. I am focused on accuracy and accuracy alone. Throwing out excuses for bullshit is a waste of my time. What I focus on is the reality of the situation. And the reality of the situation is that Cell is not trying very hard at all against Piccolo. He basically wastes him without lifting a finger. From what I can see, Cell can easily and I mean EASILY one shot KO Piccolo with complete ease, should he decide to use all of his power in an attack. If 17 can almost punch a whole in pre Kami Piccolo, Cell should be able to punch through his body for sure.

Cell is taking it easy on Piccolo, yet still completely wrecking him. It's one of the largest gaps in the series.
And how do you know Cell is taking it easy on Piccolo? Why can't he be attacking Piccolo as hard as he could? No statement of him pulling his punches is made.
 

p123

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Look at his mannerisms. He's very relaxed, nonchalant and so on. Not until he breaks his neck do we see any real force from Cell and even then, he doesn't appear to be going at it all that hard. He's a bit harder to judge because you can't read his facial expressions, but his overall demeanor is so relaxed, it can't help but be noticed if you look for it. There is no strain on Cell. He's just casually going after Piccolo and Cell like it's a walk in the park.

After Piccolo is taken out, Cell asks 17 if he's tired of playing this game too. It's clear that Cell has upped the ante here. He's leaning into his punches with his body more, the art indicates effort is being used and lookie here, Mr. Infinite Energy is put down with a 2 shot combo, so much for never fatiguing and not feeling pain.

Now look at Cell's posture after being attacked by 16. He's much more aggressive now, the look on his face, much more serious. He's in an athletic position. The art indicates Cell moving faster, he's using his real ability now.

If you are unable to tell when a character is going for a casual stroll or when he's actually giving 100% effort, I don't know what to tell you. It's all right there in the story. The author uses facial expressions, swirls around the characters, noises around the characters, posture and other tells to denote what the story is trying to express to you. Why don't you try using your eyes next time? Don't just look at every power statement and think that's everything.

If you go by power statements alone, we would never know Vegeta is weaker than Initial Final Form Freeza. You are already living here many hours a day for years, you still haven't picked up on this shit yet?
 

ahill1

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p123 said:
Look at his mannerisms. He's very relaxed, nonchalant and so on. Not until he breaks his neck do we see any real force from Cell and even then, he doesn't appear to be going at it all that hard. He's a bit harder to judge because you can't read his facial expressions, but his overall demeanor is so relaxed, it can't help but be noticed if you look for it. There is no strain on Cell. He's just casually going after Piccolo and Cell like it's a walk in the park.

After Piccolo is taken out, Cell asks 17 if he's tired of playing this game too. It's clear that Cell has upped the ante here. He's leaning into his punches with his body more, the art indicates effort is being used and lookie here, Mr. Infinite Energy is put down with a 2 shot combo, so much for never fatiguing and not feeling pain.

Now look at Cell's posture after being attacked by 16. He's much more aggressive now, the look on his face, much more serious. He's in an athletic position. The art indicates Cell moving faster, he's using his real ability now.

If you are unable to tell when a character is going for a casual stroll or when he's actually giving 100% effort, I don't know what to tell you. It's all right there in the story. The author uses facial expressions, swirls around the characters, noises around the characters, posture and other tells to denote what the story is trying to express to you. Why don't you try using your eyes next time? Don't just look at every power statement and think that's everything.

If you go by power statements alone, we would never know Vegeta is weaker than Initial Final Form Freeza. You are already living here many hours a day for years, you still haven't picked up on this shit yet?
He has a more aggressive posture when #16 is around because he is much stronger than Piccolo and on par with Cell. That's why Cell wouldn't look so relaxed. Cell is just not as frenetic against Piccolo, that is, hitting him as many times as he could and frenetically going at him. The fact that Piccolo is much weaker than him allows such demeanor. It doesn't mean that when Cell hits Piccolo he doesn't do it at full force nor is it implied, as we can't really get a reading to Cell's facial expression as his face isn't that visible. I can still hit someone as hard as I can and still not have an aggressive posture, not go at him frenetically and look relaxed when walking through them. *Punch someone as hard as I can... give him time to recover... hit him again*.

Since he knows #16 is much stronger than Piccolo, he knows that he can't afford giving him time to recover and have to therefore take a more aggressive posture.

If I fight someone whose power is around mine, then I will visibly show more effort than if I just crush someone way weaker than me, even if I am still not holding back against the latter. Common sense really.
 

p123

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We'll have to agree to disagree here. Going all out requires effort.
 

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p123 said:
What exactly happened? Cell is walking nonchalantly towards the massive blast, smoke goes everywhere and Cell ends up underwater? Did Cell tank it? Was he pushed down? How does his body look while it's being pushed? Is he fighting the blast off at all? Does it just wreck him for a second but no official damage like Perfect Cell combo on Super Saiyan Gohan into the mountains? Not as devastating, but something like that?

This is one of the oddest scenarios in the series.

Do you think that's a Freeza/Nail or Old Piccolo/Goku blast tanking?
 

p123

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It seems a bit less than Old PD tank, but in that realm I would guess.
 

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