Cell vs Piccolo (Round 2)

[p123]

Wanted to talk about just how much more powerful Cell is here. Cell casually wrecks Piccolo with two hits. Both hits require Piccolo to hold his face in pain or to struggle to get up. He's exhausted after just two hits. This is clearly a tremendous gap. This right here when compared to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell, already seems to be a larger gap. Which is impressive.

Now, the big one. The Light Grenade. Even if you want to assume that Piccolo is a bit tired, which he is, and is not at full power, the implications on this is tremendous. Not only does Cell not take any damage, he seems to full on tank the hit. No guard, no resistance, no effort to even treat Piccolo's most powerful attack with any respect.

It's hard not to go crazy over this one, it's definitely implied to be a tremendous gap.

If Raditz had to block Goku's Kamehameha frantically, clearly there is a much larger gap here than what that was. Which is scary for power levelers all over.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Gohan vs Cell is bigger. Gohan vs Cell is he biggest gap in powers in the whole series. I mean Gohan is higher than Vegetto.

 

[p123]

No, I don't buy it. Gohan can't even fully tank Cell and Gohan is using nearly all of his effort with his attacks. Meanwhile, Cell is causing nearly as much damage to Piccolo, with zero effort. Also, Gohan could not even dream of tanking on Cell's strongest attack, meanwhile, Cell doesn't even think to block Piccolo's strongest attack.

There is no way Gohan/Cell is a bigger gap than Cell/Piccolo in my book.

EDIT: Damn I got trolled. Nice play.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Gohan could have tanked. He just didn't, because Cell was aiming at the earth, so Gohan had no choice but to repell Cell's KHH. Cell knew it too, that's why he didn't aim right at Gohan because he knew he'd tank it no problem.

 

[ahill1]

Gohan vs Cell is bigger. Gohan vs Cell is he biggest gap in powers in the whole series. I mean Gohan is higher than Vegetto.

If the tank feat is anything to go by, both #16 vs Semi Cell and Super Vegeta vs Cell are bigger gaps than Cell vs ssj2 Gohan. The latter was still somewhat budged by Cell's punch whereas Cell barely even moved in those aforementioned fights.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Gohan vs Cell is bigger. Gohan vs Cell is he biggest gap in powers in the whole series. I mean Gohan is higher than Vegetto.

If the tank feat is anything to go by, both #16 vs Semi Cell and Super Vegeta vs Cell are bigger gaps than Cell vs ssj2 Gohan. The latter was still somewhat budged by Cell's punch whereas Cell barely even moved in those aforementioned fights.

Nah, meng. Gohan just leaned-back, because AT wanted to make it suspenseful.

 

[SSJ2]

Does anyone really try to argue that the gap between Cell and Piccolo is not much different from Raditz and Goku's KHH? That sounds absurd to me.

 

[ahill1]

Does anyone really try to argue that the gap between Cell and Piccolo is not much different from Raditz and Goku's KHH? That sounds absurd to me.

P meant the gap between Raditz and Goku's normal, base power, not Goku's KMHMH.

 

[SSJ2]

Wouldn't the power of the attack be the only thing relevant in this situation?

 

[p123]

Of course SSJ2, I don't know what the hell ahill is talking about...

Compare Goku's Kamehameha to Raditz and Piccolo's Light Grenade to Cell. It's not comparison.

Piccolo should easily have a superior amplifier and Cell is also much more superior to the blast than Raditz is. This calls for HAXXXX. Thank God I make my own numbers up, some of this shit is just too ridiculous.

 

[SSJ2]

I agree. I think the difference between Piccolo and Cell should be 3x at the absolute minimum.

 

[ahill1]

Wouldn't the power of the attack be the only thing relevant in this situation?

He was comparing both because Raditz still bothered in blocking Goku's KMHMH, whereas Cell just didn't bother at all in blocking Piccolo's Gekiretsu Kodan. If we take that as an implication, then Cell's gap over Piccolo should be even bigger than the gap Raditz had over Goku back at the beginning of Z.

I personally don't think it's that straightforward, since Piccolo was probably far from full power there. He seemed to be really hurt over Cell's first punch and then struggled to get up after being kicked in the face, not to mention being out of breath. So, considering Goku was still relatively fresh when firing off the KMHMH at Raditz, I don't think Cell has to be that much ahead Piccolo. 1.5x~2x might be already enough imo.

 

[ahill1]

Of course SSJ2, I don't know what the hell ahill is talking about...

Compare Goku's Kamehameha to Raditz and Piccolo's Light Grenade to Cell. It's not comparison.

Piccolo should easily have a superior amplifier and Cell is also much more superior to the blast than Raditz is. This calls for HAXXXX. Thank God I make my own numbers up, some of this shit is just too ridiculous.

By "clearly there's a much higher gap than that was", don't you mean that Cell's gap over Piccolo is higher than Raditz's gap over Goku? That's at least how I have interpreted it. SSJ2 thought you were saying that Cell's gap over Piccolo should be bigger than Raditz's gap over Goku's KMHMH, not Goku's base power.

 

[p123]

@ ahill
I think people just try to nerf it because the implications are insane. I mean in regards to Goku's KHH vs Raditz and Piccolo's Light Grenade vs Cell. Clearly Cell is stronger than the blast by a larger margin than Raditz was.

@SSJ2
3x is probably not even cutting it either... Piccolo considers Goku's Kamehameha from that time to be pathetic. If 2.22x is pathetic, Jesus Christ. He can potentially have a 4-5x amplification on his Light Grenade. Also if Raditz is 1,250, Goku's Kamehameha is 74% of Raditz. So we have to make Piccolo's Light Grenade at max 66% of Cell. Maybe that's not even enough.

Piccolo 250
~ Light Grenade 1,000

Cell 1,500

Haha, that's so ridiculous. No wonder everyone just chucks out this evidence and claims BS. It's too insane.

 

[SSJ2]

3x would be my minimum assuming Piccolo wasn't near full power. If you believe he was closer to full power, then yea, I would agree.

 

[ahill1]

I honestly don't even think Toriyama is considering the KMHMH as a 2x+ amplification there. If Cell just amplified his power by two via the KMHMH, that attack would be the strongest chi Piccolo has ever felt, as it'd likely eclipse his own power -- and consequently the androids' -- by far. Calling the strongest attack he has ever faced and that could potentially kill him alongside the androids (if going by the 2.2x amplification) a pathetic one isn't giving it due respect. By the way Piccolo expressed himself towards Cell's KMHMH, it really shouldn't be all that. So, much like [probably] the SSJ amplification, I think the attacks' amplification there is just plot based... surely not close to 2x imo. Remember, 2x would make it the strongest chi Piccolo has ever felt... even if it's still a shell to what it should be were Piccolo to use it with an "updated" amplification, calling it pathetic just doesn't make sense were it that strong.

 

[p123]

Well he sure as hell isn't at half power. He's had a couple good rounds with 17 and has taken exactly two punches from Cell. When Perfect Cell takes two punches from Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, he appears to be more damaged. But Perfect Cell's Kamehameha still is implied to pack quite a punch. I don't think amplified ki works how everyone assumes.

You are not amplifying your own maximum ki, you are amplifying the portion you are using. Let's say you have a blast that you can do twice, you might use up 50% of your ki on one attack, amplifying it up to 2x your maximum power. But after you use one, you are reduced to 50% of your ki, then when you amplifying that ki, you are technically amplifying your own power 4x. Which doesn't make sense. Here, let me show you numerically, it's easier.


Ki Reading 100
Ki Used 50
Blast 200

Ki Reading 50
Ki Used 50
Blast 200

For example, Piccolo says he can do the Special Beam Cannon at full power twice. And so on. I don't think the story ever implies damage and fatigue have all that tremendous of an effect on major ki blasts.


@ahill

Agreed, which is why I go with my own amplification numbers. Much more realistic and reasonable. I have to make some changes to the scouter numbers, but if it's for a better project, why the hell not?

 

[ahill1]

When fighting kid Goku, Piccolo Daimao states his second attack won't be as powerful as the first one, so fatigue/ weakened powers surely have an influence over the amplified chi blast:

Spoiler

Even though Piccolo wasn't nearly as damaged as he was after having an exhaustive battle against #17 and getting hit twice by Cell, he still admitted he wouldn't lay out as much power as he did before.

Regarding Piccolo and the Makankosappo, I only recall him stating he could do it one more time, with no specification that it'd be as powerful as the last one, with only the anime filler reading leading us to believe that.

Spoiler

 

[p123]

In some cases yes, in others, no.

Think about Tien and his Kikoho. Look how damaged he was. Are you telling me that if he had done the Kikoho at full power, he would have wiped out Nappa? I don't buy that. I buy into the idea that they are full power, unless otherwise stated. Piccolo Daimao tells us that it is not full power, so we know. But the reader should be assuming full power unless otherwise directed.

I just don't see how the author wants the reader to think, man, if only that Piccolo would had fired that blast first before getting beat up, then he could have won!

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, if Tenshinhan were at full power his Kikoho would have been considerably more powerful. He was already pretty damage and lacking an arm, hence it wasn't as powerful as it'd have been were Ten at FP. Considering how powerful the Kikoho was implied to be since its introduction, with its power being emphasized as being many times above the KMHMH by Roshi and Tenshinhan still not going all out on it so he wouldn't be killed, I don't think it damaging Nappa more were Tenshinhan at full power is a problem. He didn't even resort to the Kikoho in the 23rd Budokai because he knew that would be risky both to him and to Goku, plus he knew Goku could probably just move aside.

Don't you see the chi blasts working as an amplification much like the transformations like Oozaru and SSJ? So, if someone's SSJ can be weakened if the base isn't as strong as ever, then I don't see why it'd be different with a chi blast. The chi blast is multiplying the user's powers, so if the user isn't at full power, then it won't be as strong. The multiplier isn't taking power from one's ass, it's multiplying what the user has available.