Cymbal vs Tenshinhan (powered-up; vs Yamcha)

[Diamond Ryan]

God damn, even if you take out the many times stronger statement it's still a mess.

Do you mean what Super-Saiyan proposed or just the power-chain in-general? I don't find too many things wrong with it. Kuririn was many times below Goku at the 22nd Tenkaichi-Budokai. Only we didn't know that until the Piccolo-Daimao Saga.

I mean Cymbal and Tambourine. Goku calls Yaji the toughest person he's ever met, implying he's > Ten, yet he has trouble with Cymbal until he stops warming up. However, Tambourine is implied to be trash to 22nd Budokai Goku, which shouldn't be the case if Cymbal can trouble an opponent who's > Tenshinhan.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

God damn, even if you take out the many times stronger statement it's still a mess.

Do you mean what Super-Saiyan proposed or just the power-chain in-general? I don't find too many things wrong with it. Kuririn was many times below Goku at the 22nd Tenkaichi-Budokai. Only we didn't know that until the Piccolo-Daimao Saga.

I mean Cymbal and Tambourine. Goku calls Yaji the toughest person he's ever met, implying he's > Ten, yet he has trouble with Cymbal until he stops warming up. However, Tambourine is implied to be trash to 22nd Budokai Goku, which shouldn't be the case if Cymbal can trouble an opponent who's > Tenshinhan.

To be honest tough in this case can just mean him being able to take attacks that someone of his level so strength shouldn't logically be able to shrug-off so easily. Or that's what I think it is.

Yajirobe didn't seem to be hurt too much from Cymbal's attacks even when he was warming-up or so it seemed to me.

 

[SSJ2]

Yajirobe is not the strongest person Goku's met imo.

 

[ahill1]

It's a pretty trick situation imo. Goku used a pretty relevant power against Yajirobe, since the fat man's witnessing his beatdown lead him to conclude he's the toughest person he ever met. I can't see Goku saying Yajirobe is tougher than Ten if he was using something below his true power in the 22nd Budokai, which wasn't enough to hurt Tenshinhan THAT badly. Yet, Cymbal wasn't too far off from initial Yajirobe, forcing him to use his full power. With this, we would have Goku (vs yajirobe), Yajirobe (initial) and Cymbal not too far off from each other.

Yet, Tambourine was many times above Cymbal and IMPLIED (it's not a necessity) to be below 22nd Budokai Goku. Pretty tough to figure out.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

It's a pretty trick situation imo. Goku used a pretty relevant power against Yajirobe, since the fat man's witnessing his beatdown lead him to conclude he's the toughest person he ever met. I can't see Goku saying Yajirobe is tougher than Ten if he was using something below his true power in the 22nd Budokai, which wasn't enough to hurt Tenshinhan THAT badly. Yet, Cymbal wasn't too far off from initial Yajirobe, forcing him to use his full power. With this, we would have Goku (vs yajirobe), Yajirobe (initial) and Cymbal not too far off from each other.

Yet, Tambourine was many times above Cymbal and IMPLIED (it's not a necessity) to be below 22nd Budokai Goku. Pretty tough to figure out.

Do you think Goku got a Zenkai post 22nd Tournament? I don't know. Everything seems to point toward Goku from the tournament being able to waste Tambourine, if he was healthy. Master Roshi said too that Goku needed to rest and can't take-on an opponent that defeated Kuririn.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I don't know, 22nd Goku > Tambourine seems pretty clear cut. Additionally, if Tambourine was > 22nd Goku, that'd make Tenshinhan landing a hit on Drum pretty inconsistent. He should've been fodderized right off the bat if the latter option was the case.

 

[ahill1]

It's a pretty trick situation imo. Goku used a pretty relevant power against Yajirobe, since the fat man's witnessing his beatdown lead him to conclude he's the toughest person he ever met. I can't see Goku saying Yajirobe is tougher than Ten if he was using something below his true power in the 22nd Budokai, which wasn't enough to hurt Tenshinhan THAT badly. Yet, Cymbal wasn't too far off from initial Yajirobe, forcing him to use his full power. With this, we would have Goku (vs yajirobe), Yajirobe (initial) and Cymbal not too far off from each other.

Yet, Tambourine was many times above Cymbal and IMPLIED (it's not a necessity) to be below 22nd Budokai Goku. Pretty tough to figure out.

Do you think Goku got a Zenkai post 22nd Tournament? I don't know. Everything seems to point toward Goku from the tournament being able to waste Tambourine, if he was healthy. Master Roshi said too that Goku needed to rest and can't take-on an opponent that defeated Kuririn.

Goku probably got a considerable Zenkai, considering the chain of post 22nd Goku > Mutaito > young Roshi > 22nd Goku.

Roshi simply said Goku in that state had no chance against an opponent who had the power to take down Kuririn. When he knew that was Piccolo's thing, then he treated Goku's chance as hopeless, without even bringing up the enemy's capability of taking down Kuririn.

But I agree it's likely Goku 22nd > Tambourine based on what he said, making the whole situation even more complicated.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

It's a pretty trick situation imo. Goku used a pretty relevant power against Yajirobe, since the fat man's witnessing his beatdown lead him to conclude he's the toughest person he ever met. I can't see Goku saying Yajirobe is tougher than Ten if he was using something below his true power in the 22nd Budokai, which wasn't enough to hurt Tenshinhan THAT badly. Yet, Cymbal wasn't too far off from initial Yajirobe, forcing him to use his full power. With this, we would have Goku (vs yajirobe), Yajirobe (initial) and Cymbal not too far off from each other.

Yet, Tambourine was many times above Cymbal and IMPLIED (it's not a necessity) to be below 22nd Budokai Goku. Pretty tough to figure out.

Do you think Goku got a Zenkai post 22nd Tournament? I don't know. Everything seems to point toward Goku from the tournament being able to waste Tambourine, if he was healthy. Master Roshi said too that Goku needed to rest and can't take-on an opponent that defeated Kuririn.

Goku probably got a considerable Zenkai, considering the chain of post 22nd Goku > Mutaito > young Roshi > 22nd Goku.

Roshi simply said Goku in that state had no chance against an opponent who had the power to take down Kuririn. When he knew that was Piccolo's thing, then he treated Goku's chance as hopeless, without even bringing up the enemy's capability of taking down Kuririn.

But I agree it's likely Goku 22nd > Tambourine based on what he said, making the whole situation even more complicated.

Well yeah, I know that. I meant do you think he got a Zenkai right after his match with Tenshinhan. You seemed to imply that.

I'm just saying Master-Roshi's comment and just everything that was said and happened around the time seemed to heavily indicate that Tambourine'd be trashed had Goku not fought Tenshinhan just some minutes ago.

 

[ahill1]

I meant do you think he got a Zenkai right after his match with Tenshinhan. You seemed to imply that.

How so?

I'm just saying Master-Roshi's comment and just everything that was said and happened around the time seemed to heavily indicate that Tambourine'd be trashed had Goku not fought Tenshinhan just some minutes ago.

I know what you are saying. While Goku's comment does imply that (even though is possible he was factoring an increase in power after recovering), Roshi was simply making note Goku had no chance against an opponent who had the power to take Kuririn down. He didn't know Tambourine's strength or anything, just that he is able to kill Kuririn pretty quick.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I meant do you think he got a Zenkai right after his match with Tenshinhan. You seemed to imply that.

How so?

I'm just saying Master-Roshi's comment and just everything that was said and happened around the time seemed to heavily indicate that Tambourine'd be trashed had Goku not fought Tenshinhan just some minutes ago.

I know what you are saying. While Goku's comment does imply that (even though is possible he was factoring an increase in power after recovering), Roshi was simply making note Goku had no chance against an opponent who had the power to take Kuririn down. He didn't know Tambourine's strength or anything, just that he is able to kill Kuririn pretty quick.

You said it wasn't necessary for 22nd Tenkaichi-Budokai Goku to be higher than Tambourine. I see no way around it.

Yeah, I know that. I'm just saying that alongside Goku saying Tambourine is nothing to him and the way the story was told, with Master-Roshi also specifically mentioning Goku was tired, seemed to all hint to that is what I'm saying.

 

[ahill1]

You said it wasn't necessary for 22nd Tenkaichi-Budokai Goku to be higher than Tambourine. I see no way around it.

That's if we consider Goku expected to have an increase in power after Ten's battle. It's not a very high probability I'd say, but it's still there. Goku wasn't exactly near death after Tenshinhan's battle, but Kuririn described Goku's gaining power after "fierce battles".

Kuririn: “So…so that’s it…! Now that he mentions it, Goku also got stronger every time he had a fierce fight…Dam-dammit! So that’s why Vegeta’s ki has risen so darn much…!”

with Master-Roshi also specifically mentioning Goku was tired, seemed to all hint to that is what I'm saying.

Again, that comment was made even prior Kame Sen'nin knowing Piccolo was in the scene, so he didn't know Tambourine's strength at that moment and, therefore, didn't know how a full power Goku would be compared to Kuririn's murderer.

But like I said, 22nd Goku being above Tambourine is likely based on the unlikelyhood of Goku counting with a Zenkai, not just something craved on stone.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

About Master Roshi's comment I'm not talking about what he said specifically. I know what he said. It's just why would AT have Naster Roshi say that along-side Goku's comment, if not to strengthen the fact that at full-power Goku'd have wasted Tambourine. Again, I'm not talking about the specifics like Master-Roshi knowing or not knowing that that was from Piccolo-Daimao.