Dabura being "over 4000" kiri

Tapion

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Super Saiyan said:
Goku then tells us that a Gohan who is far weaker than his Cell Games self isn't completely losing to Dabra, who if is stronger than Super Perfect Cell should be capable of one shotting Gohan.

Dabura was probably holding back, as it is established that Majin Boo's revival would require an extended, drawn-out altercation. Defeating Gohan quickly would result in no energy for Boo.

Later, we see Kaioshin saying that Gohan would need to get angry and release his true power to have a chance of defeating Dabura:

Kaioshin: “Goku and Vegeta are probably having a roughly even fight…I’ll pin Babidi down. After that, if you can manage to defeat Dabra, then Babidi’s scheme will be completely wiped out! So then! Now’s the time to get angry, like Goku said! Get angry and show me your true power! Gohan, peace is almost at hand!”


When Boo first appears, Gohan is blown away by his power and states he would need to put out the exact same power he used to kill Cell in order to defeat Boo:

Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

Dabura, on the other hand, explicitly comments on Boo's power and calls it garbage:

Dabra: “I don’t know why, but it seems we failed…I thought [Boo] had finally appeared, but it’s just some stupid-looking raw garbage, without brains or power…”


Boo has to perform a massive power-up before attacking Dabura, one so great that it shocks everyone in the area:

Gohan: “It-it rose…Majin Boo’s ki rose explosively…He’s str-strong…Too strong…This is unbelievable…”
 

SSJ2

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[mention]Tapion[/mention]

Dabura was probably holding back, as it is established that Majin Boo's revival would require an extended, drawn-out altercation. Defeating Gohan quickly would result in no energy for Boo.

But why would he hold back to a level where he didn't even damage Gohan? What was established was that the only way Boo would receive energy was if Babidi's warriors managed to damage their foes. Rusty or not, Gohan was still exhausted enough to warrant taking a Senzu bean after the fight, implying that the fight was fairly long and tested him. If Dabra was suppressed, it should have been easy for him to up his intensity a little bit to actually deal damage to Gohan.

Later, we see Kaioshin saying that Gohan would need to get angry and release his true power to have a chance of defeating Dabura:

Kaioshin: “Goku and Vegeta are probably having a roughly even fight…I’ll pin Babidi down. After that, if you can manage to defeat Dabra, then Babidi’s scheme will be completely wiped out! So then! Now’s the time to get angry, like Goku said! Get angry and show me your true power! Gohan, peace is almost at hand!”

I'm not sure this contradicts my stance. Gohan was shown unable to defeat Dabra earlier despite not taking any serious damage, so it stands to reason that he would need his true power/anger to defeat him.

When Boo first appears, Gohan is blown away by his power and states he would need to put out the exact same power he used to kill Cell in order to defeat Boo:

Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

Dabura, on the other hand, explicitly comments on Boo's power and calls it garbage:

Dabra: “I don’t know why, but it seems we failed…I thought [Boo] had finally appeared, but it’s just some stupid-looking raw garbage, without brains or power…”


Boo has to perform a massive power-up before attacking Dabura, one so great that it shocks everyone in the area:

Gohan: “It-it rose…Majin Boo’s ki rose explosively…He’s str-strong…Too strong…This is unbelievable…”

I'm not so sure of Dabra's ki sensing abilities or how they work. The first glimpse we get is Dabra being able to sense all 7 fighters outside of Babidi's ship, including Kibito and Kaioshin who have insensible ki. We also know the Z Senshi were suppressing their ki to 0, yet Dabra was still able to discern those with "great potential". So how is he able to gather this when their ki was suppressed?

t4wUk0U.png


So already we can establish that his sensing abilities work differently. Next, we have Goku transforming into Super Saiyan against Yakon.

BUGbUNe.jpg


It's pretty odd that Dabra's first assessment of SSJ Goku was that he was glowing. He had no idea that Goku powered up until Babidi looked at the kiri meter. We later see the same type of reaction when Boo was forming:

lwRHZug.jpg


Gohan immediately was able to tell that he hadn't destroyed Boo at all. Both Dabra and Babidi had to use Gohan/Kaioshin's reaction to validate Boo's existence. They seemingly couldn't sense his power forming right above them. Dabra once again failed to comment on the size of the ki, but commented on the smoke forming. It makes me really doubt his ability to sense, and makes me think he was judging Boo initially by his appearance and retarded personality.

Unfortunately we only see Gohan react to Boo's power up, so it's unclear if Dabra was aware of it before Boo one shotted him. Either way, I think this evidence throws some serious doubt into his abilities to sense ki.
 

Evil Vegeta

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About Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 comment, wouldn't Goku and Vegeta naturally bring about more damage energy based on the fact that they're way ahead of both Gohan and Dabra? I don't believe Super Saiyan 2 is all in the same tier. Teen Gohan seems like the lowest on the totem pole, so Dabra would be right there with him.
 

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If that was the case, the entire first part of his quote would be unnecessary. He could have left out the part of Goku and Vegeta fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan if he had already displayed that level himself. It should have been obvious that they were at that level given how strong they were, but Gohan made note of it anyway..
 

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Super Saiyan said:
But why would he hold back to a level where he didn't even damage Gohan?

The same reason why Goku's Kamehameha didn't do any damage to the inferior Nappa; Gohan is a Saiyan, so his physiology allows him to take a lot more punishment than others would with the same power level.

What was established was that the only way Boo would receive energy was if Babidi's warriors managed to damage their foes. If Dabra was suppressed, it should have been easy for him to up his intensity a little bit to actually deal damage to Gohan.

Dabura did deal some damage, since Gohan had to take a Senzu after the fight, as you pointed out. And the battle was cut short by Dabura's realization that Vegeta could be made to fight for them.

I'm not sure this contradicts my stance. Gohan was shown unable to defeat Dabra earlier despite not taking any serious damage, so it stands to reason that he would need his true power/anger to defeat him.

Your stance is that Dabura isn't on the same tier of strength as a 'powerful' Super Saiyan 2, correct? If he was fighting Gohan at a level "way stronger" than full-power Perfect Cell, who is already much stronger than a Super Saiyan 1, that would already put somewhere around Super Saiyan 2 tier, and Kaioshin's statement would push him even higher than that.

I'm not so sure of Dabra's ki sensing abilities or how they work. The first glimpse we get is Dabra being able to sense all 7 fighters outside of Babidi's ship, including Kibito and Kaioshin who have insensible ki.

Dabura is the King of the Demon Realm, so he'd be able to sense godly ki:

Toriyama said:

[color=#00FFF]Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”[/color]

He comments not on everyone's dormant potential, but rather the energy they're giving off, so he's definitely sensing their ki as opposed to something else. The way I see it, the fact he is able to detect everyone while they're concealing their power makes him a better energy sensor than usual. Perhaps it has something to do with him being a divine being/an evil counterpart to a Kaioshin.

Next, we have Goku transforming into Super Saiyan against Yakon.

Babidi had teleported everyone in the battlefield to Yakon's home planet light-years away, which would make it far more difficult for them to pick up on his energy.

Gohan immediately was able to tell that he hadn't destroyed Boo at all. Both Dabra and Babidi had to use Gohan/Kaioshin's reaction to validate Boo's existence.

Kaioshin, who is able to sense ki, also thought Boo had been destroyed at first, and was visibly surprised when Gohan told him to check for Boo's ki.

Dabura came to the realization that Boo was still alive at the same time.

It makes me really doubt his ability to sense, and makes me think he was judging Boo initially by his appearance and retarded personality.

If that had been the case, he wouldn't have commented on Boo's power.
 

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Worth noting that Future Dabura took a beatdown from an enraged Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and was visibly amused afterwards.

67rl4pN.jpg

uZowsz4.jpg
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Super Saiyan said:
and this is prior to it being revealed that both of them could use Super Saiyan 2 - which was a surprise to Vegeta after seeing Goku use it against Yakon.

Not at all. It has been pointed out that Vegeta's line should be translated as "So as expected, that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall?...The Super Saiyan wall..."

Tapion said:
The same reason why Goku's Kamehameha didn't do any damage to the inferior Nappa; Gohan is a Saiyan, so his physiology allows him to take a lot more punishment than others would with the same power level.

He's not a full Saiyan though, so we shouldn't take this logical leap unless you happen to have some other cases of Gohan showcasing Saiyan-like durability. Are there any feats in particular that reinforce Gohan being this durable?

Besides, Gohan outmuscles Dabra in two different occasions. He breaks Dabra's guard with a single kick early on the fight and later manages to stop and tear apart Dabra's sword.
 

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
He's not a full Saiyan though, so we shouldn't take this logical leap unless you happen to have some other cases of Gohan showcasing Saiyan-like durability. Are there any feats in particular that reinforce Gohan being this durable?

.

Daizenshuu 4 said:
The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies. Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan.

Daizenshuu 2 said:
SON GOHAN
Dormant power that knows no bottom, even though he was trained from infancy.
Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan.

The Daizenshuu 4 asserts that Saiyan genes possess extraordinarily good compatibility with human blood, allowing children with far more formidable power than usual to be born, and the Daizenshuu 2 states that Gohan is an "elite" who was easily capable of handling the training he was put through as a four-year old, and then affirms that this is because he surpasses the average Saiyan. The way this is worded would heavily imply that this is supposed to be saying that his endurance is even better than that of a pure Saiyan.

That said...

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P4.3
Context: after hitting Gohan
Freeza: “You won’t be damaged from [an attack of] that level.


And that was a massive gap.

No.17: “Anyway, it’s been a long time, Son Gohan…It’s been about 1 year, right? I’m surprised you managed to survive after taking a beating like that…”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”


Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
 

Evil Vegeta

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Super Saiyan said:
If that was the case, the entire first part of his quote would be unnecessary. He could have left out the part of Goku and Vegeta fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan if he had already displayed that level himself. It should have been obvious that they were at that level given how strong they were, but Gohan made note of it anyway..

I mean, a lot of things seem unnecessary in the Boo saga. Like, why would Goku tell Gohan he'd have to tap into levels of power he did against Cell to handle Dabra if simply going Super Saiyan 2 alone would've been enough? He's talking as if this is Gohan's only chance at winning.

About 100% of Gohan's power got the meter to almost half. Fighting Dabra moved it a little past half. Goku and Vegeta pummeling each other got that almost instantly. That should establish a significant difference.
 

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I’ll reply to all 9 of you when I have time.
 

Tapion

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Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.”


The fight between Goku and Vegeta proves what I had been saying before; that Dabura clearly couldn't have gone all-out against Gohan or else there would be little to no energy gathered for Majin Boo. All Gohan's line means is that he is a weakling compared to Goku and Vegeta. That doesn't apply to Dabura, who was holding back.

Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”


Considering this is the exact same guy who withstood a massive beatdown from a pissed-off Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and came out smiling, I'm gonna say he's about right.
 

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Why there'd be little to no energy gathered? If Dabura KOs Gohan, shouldn't all Gohan's energy be gathered to Babidi's purpose?
 

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Tapion said:
Super Saiyan said:
But why would he hold back to a level where he didn't even damage Gohan?

The same reason why Goku's Kamehameha didn't do any damage to the inferior Nappa; Gohan is a Saiyan, so his physiology allows him to take a lot more punishment than others would with the same power level.

--

Dabura did deal some damage, since Gohan had to take a Senzu after the fight, as you pointed out. And the battle was cut short by Dabura's realization that Vegeta could be made to fight for them.

That's not my point. If Dabra had vast reserves of power, he should have been able to dial up his power enough to start damaging Gohan. He made it clear to Babidi that he would fill Boo's meter in no time at all, yet by the time he and Gohan had an extended fight, he only slightly had moved the meter.


N5sX100.png


Your stance is that Dabura isn't on the same tier of strength as a 'powerful' Super Saiyan 2, correct? If he was fighting Gohan at a level "way stronger" than full-power Perfect Cell, who is already much stronger than a Super Saiyan 1, that would already put somewhere around Super Saiyan 2 tier, and Kaioshin's statement would push him even higher than that.
Nah, I view Gohan as a Super Saiyan during their fight. To me, Dabra is above the level of Cell that Gohan fought at best.

Dabura is the King of the Demon Realm, so he'd be able to sense godly ki:

Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”

He comments not on everyone's dormant potential, but rather the energy they're giving off, so he's definitely sensing their ki as opposed to something else. The way I see it, the fact he is able to detect everyone while they're concealing their power makes him a better energy sensor than usual. Perhaps it has something to do with him being a divine being/an evil counterpart to a Kaioshin.
But that directly contradicts the fact that the Z Senshi were suppressed. What marvelous energy is he sensing? It was established on Namek that the Z Senshi can eliminate all traces of their ki, so Dabra clearly is able to sense them in some different way.


IX6ruRs.png
pJDUAPU.png

Babidi had teleported everyone in the battlefield to Yakon's home planet light-years away, which would make it far more difficult for them to pick up on his energy.

You could be correct here. It still seems a little suspect considering they were still technically inside the ship. It seems odd that the door leading to the next level of the ship would completely seal of their ki, only to reveal it once more when open. That door might be stronger than Gero's Gate.

Kaioshin, who is able to sense ki, also thought Boo had been destroyed at first, and was visibly surprised when Gohan told him to check for Boo's ki.

Dabura came to the realization that Boo was still alive at the same time.

If that had been the case, he wouldn't have commented on Boo's power.
I guess I can concede this point, but it makes both Dabra and Kaioshin look extremely incompetent.


GreatSaiyaman123 said:
Super Saiyan said:
and this is prior to it being revealed that both of them could use Super Saiyan 2 - which was a surprise to Vegeta after seeing Goku use it against Yakon.

Not at all. It has been pointed out that Vegeta's line should be translated as "So as expected, that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall?...The Super Saiyan wall..."

Surprise was the wrong word. Vegeta still needed to see Goku transform to confirm that he had Super Saiyan 2. Their talk about Dabra not being much of a threat despite being about as strong as Cell would make Vegeta's monologue pretty redundant if Dabra was already discerned to be Super Saiyan 2 tier.

Also, Herms himself said that it could be translated multiple ways:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=956663#p956663

Evil Vegeta said:
Super Saiyan said:
If that was the case, the entire first part of his quote would be unnecessary. He could have left out the part of Goku and Vegeta fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan if he had already displayed that level himself. It should have been obvious that they were at that level given how strong they were, but Gohan made note of it anyway..

I mean, a lot of things seem unnecessary in the Boo saga. Like, why would Goku tell Gohan he'd have to tap into levels of power he did against Cell to handle Dabra if simply going Super Saiyan 2 alone would've been enough? He's talking as if this is Gohan's only chance at winning.

About 100% of Gohan's power got the meter to almost half. Fighting Dabra moved it a little past half. Goku and Vegeta pummeling each other got that almost instantly. That should establish a significant difference.

Well, the way I view it, Goku is linking Super Saiyan 2 and anger together. It's undeniable that Gohan is drawn as a Super Saiyan during this fight, so that's the only way to make sense of it if abiding by that. I get your point though. I think it's fair to say that both sides of this argument have to make some concessions that go against logic.
 

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Going by that logic, Goku knocking out Vegeta with one blow would have transferred all of his energy to Boo;, yet Goku clearly doesn't believe that's what will happen.
 

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Only Babidi's warriors can draw energy for Boo.
 

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Super Saiyan said:
Well, the way I view it, Goku is linking Super Saiyan 2 and anger together. It's undeniable that Gohan is drawn as a Super Saiyan during this fight, so that's the only way to make sense of it if abiding by that. I get your point though. I think it's fair to say that both sides of this argument have to make some concessions that go against logic.

I kinda wanna do a long-winded post on the whole matter one of these days. Just need the energy.
 

Tapion

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Again, as I should point out, Dabura shrugged off an assault from Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and came out smiling afterward. Compare that to full-power Perfect Cell vs. Gohan, an inferior Super Saiyan 2:

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P14.5
Context: after Gohan attacks full power Cell
Cell: “Impossible…Why did I take so much damage from just 2 punches…?”


Supreme said:
That's not my point. If Dabra had vast reserves of power, he should have been able to dial up his power enough to start damaging Gohan. He made it clear to Babidi that he would fill Boo's meter in no time at all, yet by the time he and Gohan had an extended fight, he only slightly had moved the meter.

Dabura was informed by Babidi of the fact he wasn't doing enough damage right at the same time as he crafted his Vegeta plan and withdrew from the battle, so he didn't have the time to do so. And he did deal a bit of damage even while toying around.

But that directly contradicts the fact that the Z Senshi were suppressed. What marvelous energy is he sensing? It was established on Namek that the Z Senshi can eliminate all traces of their ki, so Dabra clearly is able to sense them in some different way.

As I noted, his ability to sense energy might just be sharp enough to override the Z Warriors' ability to conceal their energy, going by the way he mocks them believing they're hidden well enough to get past him. It could have something to do with his status as a 'demonic Kaioshin'.

Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…

You could be correct here. It still seems a little suspect considering they were still technically inside the ship.

After Dabura finds out Vegeta is evil, he tells Babidi to take "everyone back to the ship":

VRgfGfG.png


I guess I can concede this point, but it makes both Dabra and Kaioshin look extremely incompetent.

They are. :shin
 

Tapion

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Something people seem to miss with Goku's initial assessment on Dabura.

Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”


The entire point of the statement is to say "Cell was all but unstoppable seven years ago, but now we can handle him [since we've all achieved Super Saiyan 2]'", meaning Goku is naturally referring to a level of Cell between Super Saiyan 1 & 2. Based on that, I think it's pretty clear Goku is talking about full-power Cell who fought Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, as he is the only one who fits the bill. Anything lower than that and the statement would pretty much lose its meaning.
 
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