Sronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games, at least.
Speaking of which, Dabura broke the Z-Sword like a toy. That alone tells us he isn't on Gohan's level.
Context: after pulling out the Z Sword, Gohan doubts its power
Kibito: “What are you talking about?! That’s the strongest sword that’s been handed down in this sacred region. It definitely should be able to defeat Majin Boo…I think, though, that it’s no use if its wielder staggers around so much. You probably shouldn’t go into battle until you’ve become able to manipulate it freely…”
While this statement is made while Gohan is in his base form, Kibito obviously expects him to fight Boo as a Super Saiyan.
Something people seem to miss with Goku's initial assessment on Dabura.
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”
The entire point of the statement is to say "Cell was all but unstoppable seven years ago, but now we can handle him [since we've all achieved Super Saiyan 2]'", meaning Goku is naturally referring to a level of Cell between Super Saiyan 1 & 2. Based on that, I think it's pretty clear Goku is talking about full-power Cell who fought Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, as he is the only one who fits the bill. Anything lower than that and the statement would pretty much lose its meaning.
This alone is a good starting point for the SS2 side when we have to consider an important question - what reason would Goku have to refer to a Cell weaker than the best version he saw? Generally, statements comparing one fighter to another are those of their peak form unless specified, such as how we know Shin wasn't saying all the Kaioshin could only oneshot 1st form Freeza. You can argue Goku would refer to the Cell he personally fought, but this sort of benchmark would make little sense when he was able to sense FP Perfect Cell and view his movements and his confidence in an injured Gohan still being able to kill Cell made it fairly clear that he could sense SPC from Other World.
Goku and Vegeta are in agreement of this, and this is prior to it being revealed that both of them could use Super Saiyan 2 - which was a surprise to Vegeta after seeing Goku use it against Yakon.
Even though it wasn't explicitly revealed, it was made quite apparent that Vegeta had at least achieved SS2. He confronted Gohan about the pecking order possibly having changed despite Gohan still having access to SS2, regardless of how easily you believe he could tap into it. Vegeta isn't really the type to want to limit a battle to equal forms unless it doesn't change the outcome like with the Budokai (eg. his pride being damaged by Galu not using SS3), so it would be very out of character for him to talk like this if requesting the battle to be limited in what forms they used. Either Vegeta had already achieved SS2 or his SSJ form was now stronger than SS2 Gohan, and I think it's obvious which one sounds the more plausible.
After seeing Dabra's magic, Galu concedes that Dabra is much better than they originally thought, but Vegeta still makes it clear that he is still a beatable opponent.
Yeah, not refuting that. SS2 Vegeta > Dabura. It is worth noting though that Herms' translation does question if Vegeta is referring to Gohan being capable of winning or the Saiyans in general, the latter of which the Steve Simmons translation goes by for the anime with Vegeta saying "He's still not an opponent that can't be beaten."
Goku then tells us that a Gohan who is far weaker than his Cell Games self isn't completely losing to Dabra, who if is stronger than Super Perfect Cell should be capable of one shotting Gohan.
SPC would only be capable of oneshotting Gohan under the idea that he was unarguably a SSJ rather than SS2, of which I wouldn't agree with when the evidence for Dabura, several statements in the narrative such as Goku telling Gohan to get angry like against Cell rather than at the Budokai and the Daizenshuu entry all point to him being SS2 rather than SSJ, the art being the only real counter-evidence aside from one statement I'll cover shortly.
SS2 Boo Arc Gohan being more or less on SPC's level works fine, considering it's made apparent his Cell Games self was still significantly above the latter.
On your side I am seeing several quotes from Dabra displaying confidence in his own abilities, plus the fact that he was confident in fighting Gohan again after their first match. I find that extremely questionable when he wasn't able to draw significant damage from Gohan. If these two fighters were Super Saiyan 2 tier, it wouldn't make much sense for Gohan to later make this comment about SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta:
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”[/color]
The underlined quote makes it sound impossible for Gohan and Dabra to be on that same tier.
The translation available within the subs of the anime implied that that the damage was in reference to the state they were in rather than the actual tier of power, which makes sense when considering by that by the logic of SS2 tier power in general causing such great damage and stamina drain, fights involving those far above an SS3 should've been over in seconds. This can also explain the difference between SPC and Dabura's off-guard blasts on Gohan, considering the former was using what could be suggested to be a mutated variant of SS2.
Let's go by the route of SS2 tier power being what fully determines damage though. We saw Gohan was heavily worn out by the first battle, something we know can't be done quickly in the MSSJ state without blowing their load on something like a Kamehameha, stamina conservation being the whole point of the form; and Gohan's rustiness can't be applied for MSSJ here when he'd been sparring with Goten for several weeks. You raised the question of why wouldn't Dabura simply start dealing damage if the gap was forming between them or was there from the start. One part Tapion forgot to mention was this:
Despite Babidi's control, it's apparent Dabura has a desire to toy with opponents far below his level. Babidi reprimanding him for this thought in the next page wouldn't refute the idea he'd still go through with it when Babidi did nothing to enforce his control on him further. That, and softening up Gohan to the point he could torture him for the rest of his energy would work well for both. Moreover, there was still two fighters left even if Dabura didn't get the most damage he could've out of Gohan, one of which he knew had a similar form to him, and Dabura and Babidi had already been of the mindset that three people of less than 800 kiri would still be enough to fill up Boo's meter.
Getting back to the point of the response to the thread in general though, the 4000 kiri statement is from the anime and if it seemed accurate rather than whether or not it can be used to debate the manga, of which it undoubtedly is for the anime when the anime presents nothing to the contrary of Gohan being a SS2 and adds additional scenes that support Dabura being significantly above him such as his Ki increasing during a filler segment of him fighting Boo.
He is a half-Saiyan born without a tail, who are noted to have much greater capacity for growth than the ones born with a tail, so he should have at least surpassed Gohan from that time period.
SS2 Boo Arc Gohan being more or less on SPC's level works fine, considering it's made apparent his Cell Games self was still significantly above the latter.
I personally subscribe to the idea that Gohan (Final Burst) > SPC > Gohan (Initial), so I disagree with this. Cell shattered Gohan's arm and cut his ki in half with a simple, half-assed energy blast. Nowhere else in the series does such a feat happen. The closest thing to it is Piccolo Daimao vs. Goku (Post-Water), at which point Piccolo was clearly portrayed as superior to Goku in close quarters, even if only by a little.
I personally subscribe to the idea that Gohan (Final Burst) > SPC > Gohan (Initial), so I disagree with this. Cell shattered Gohan's arm and cut his ki by half with a simple, half-assed energy blast. Nowhere else in the series does such a feat happen. The closest thing to it is Piccolo Daimao vs. Goku (Post-Water), where Piccolo was clearly portrayed as superior to Goku in close quarters.
Nowhere else in the series is it shown indeed, yet we receive evidence that such a thing is possible even with a significant gap. Cui had complete confidence in his surprise attack being able to kill 24k Vegeta, even gloating at how the difference didn't matter if Vegeta had dropped his guard, and it's pretty evident how huge that gap was.
Moreover, Goku never specified that he knew Gohan would have no issue handling Cell if he tapped into a greater level of rage and power, simply telling Gohan to let it all out. Regardless of whether or not Gohan did surpass his previous limit during the final part of the beam struggle, it doesn't seem as though Goku was certain on him releasing greater power than what he'd displayed initially.
This is the Dragon Books' input on the subject, if you want to trust it.
Captain Cadaver said:
Nowhere else in the series is it shown indeed, yet we receive evidence that such a thing is possible even with a significant gap. Cui had complete confidence in his surprise attack being able to kill 24k Vegeta, even gloating at how the difference didn't matter if Vegeta had dropped his guard, and it's pretty evident how huge that gap was.
Given the fact Vegeta was shown to be capable of increasing his power with the Galick Gun even without knowing how to control his energy, it is quite likely that Cui's technique was significantly amplified from his normal battle power. It'd also have been a cheap, off-guard shot.
Gohan was trying to fly as fast as he could to save Vegeta from certain death, so he would have to be putting out all of his power.
Chapter: 317 (DBZ 123), P3.3
Context: still after having given most of his ki to Piccolo
Kuririn: “Dammit! I hardly have any ki left, so I can’t fly very fast!”
If he was at full-power and knew the attack was coming, he'd have been perfectly capable to mount a defense. That means it wasn't off-guard.
Moreover, Goku never specified that he knew Gohan would have no issue handling Cell if he tapped into a greater level of rage and power, simply telling Gohan to let it all out. Regardless of whether or not Gohan did surpass his previous limit during the final part of the beam struggle, it doesn't seem as though Goku was certain on him releasing greater power than what he'd displayed initially.
Goku tells Gohan to make his power 'explode' in order to eliminate Cell:
Goku: “Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!”
In the Boo Arc, Goku notes that an angry Gohan wouldn't lose to anyone in the entire world:
Goku: Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…
[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] as usual you've made a great post. It's pretty tough to refute most of what you've said, but I'll break down the issues I have.
This alone is a good starting point for the SS2 side when we have to consider an important question - what reason would Goku have to refer to a Cell weaker than the best version he saw? Generally, statements comparing one fighter to another are those of their peak form unless specified, such as how we know Shin wasn't saying all the Kaioshin could only oneshot 1st form Freeza. You can argue Goku would refer to the Cell he personally fought, but this sort of benchmark would make little sense when he was able to sense FP Perfect Cell and view his movements and his confidence in an injured Gohan still being able to kill Cell made it fairly clear that he could sense SPC from Other World.
But then by this logic, why wouldn't Goku be referring to Super Perfect Cell if we are to assume the strongest form? He was certainly able to sense both him and Gohan from Other World as you've said, so why go with the weaker Perfect Cell? I think this opens the door to using any form of Cell for this assessment tbh.
Even though it wasn't explicitly revealed, it was made quite apparent that Vegeta had at least achieved SS2. He confronted Gohan about the pecking order possibly having changed despite Gohan still having access to SS2, regardless of how easily you believe he could tap into it. Vegeta isn't really the type to want to limit a battle to equal forms unless it doesn't change the outcome like with the Budokai (eg. his pride being damaged by Galu not using SS3), so it would be very out of character for him to talk like this if requesting the battle to be limited in what forms they used. Either Vegeta had already achieved SS2 or his SSJ form was now stronger than SS2 Gohan, and I think it's obvious which one sounds the more plausible.
I agree that logically this makes sense, but I'd argue that the order of the manga's events refutes this.
"At the level we are now, anyway. He would have been bad news before." ----> "I see... So Kakarot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall too."
Perhaps I'm focusing too much on semantics, but Vegeta still confirmed Goku's ascension to SSJ2 despite the contrary quote. Doesn't make much sense to me if Goku already confirmed they were above that level.
SPC would only be capable of oneshotting Gohan under the idea that he was unarguably a SSJ rather than SS2, of which I wouldn't agree with when the evidence for Dabura, several statements in the narrative such as Goku telling Gohan to get angry like against Cell rather than at the Budokai and the Daizenshuu entry all point to him being SS2 rather than SSJ, the art being the only real counter-evidence aside from one statement I'll cover shortly.
SS2 Boo Arc Gohan being more or less on SPC's level works fine, considering it's made apparent his Cell Games self was still significantly above the latter.
I disagree with this. First of all, there is ample evidence for Super Perfect Cell being at or around the level of SSJ2 Kid Gohan. I don't see much evidence for him being far below Gohan.
"I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan…"
Chapter: 414 (DBZ 220), P14.2
Context: after getting hit by Cell’s attack while saving Vegeta
Gohan: “Cell’s power has gone up more than I thought…”
Goku then makes it clear that Gohan can only overcome Cell with his absolute full power.
Chapter: 416 (DBZ 222), P7.2, P8.1-2
Context: as Gohan and Cell’s Kamehamehas clash
Goku: “Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!”
Gohan: “I’m doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…”
Goku: “Somewhere in your mind you’re thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don’t worry about it! We’ll undo the damage with the dragonballs!”
If you ask me, all of this points to Cell being on Gohan's level. Gohan thought he was putting out his maximum power and was still losing to Cell. With Goku's final push + Vegeta's distraction, he was finally able to overcome him. This doesn't seem like Gohan has a large advantage to me..
The translation available within the subs of the anime implied that that the damage was in reference to the state they were in rather than the actual tier of power, which makes sense when considering by that by the logic of SS2 tier power in general causing such great damage and stamina drain, fights involving those far above an SS3 should've been over in seconds. This can also explain the difference between SPC and Dabura's off-guard blasts on Gohan, considering the former was using what could be suggested to be a mutated variant of SS2.
Let's go by the route of SS2 tier power being what fully determines damage though. We saw Gohan was heavily worn out by the first battle, something we know can't be done quickly in the MSSJ state without blowing their load on something like a Kamehameha, stamina conservation being the whole point of the form; and Gohan's rustiness can't be applied for MSSJ here when he'd been sparring with Goten for several weeks.
This leads me back to my original point then. If it's as you say that the damage correlates to the form of Super Saiyan (supported by Gohan's statement on SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta), why did the meter hardly move despite Gohan needing a senzu bean after the fight? The intent of MSSJ is indeed to reduce the strain of the Super Saiyan form, but you're leaving out the fact that we don't know how long Gohan and Dabra fought. I'd also argue that Gohan's training for the Budokai can't compare to the training he did for the Cell Games. Sparring and doing basic training after a 7 year layoff imo wouldn't be as advantageous as training for a year in the RoSaT after 3 years of intense training - so I do think it could be fair to say that Gohan's battle stamina wasn't as impressive as it should have been.
One part Tapion forgot to mention was this:
[+] Spoiler
Despite Babidi's control, it's apparent Dabura has a desire to toy with opponents far below his level. Babidi reprimanding him for this thought in the next page wouldn't refute the idea he'd still go through with it when Babidi did nothing to enforce his control on him further. That, and softening up Gohan to the point he could torture him for the rest of his energy would work well for both. Moreover, there was still two fighters left even if Dabura didn't get the most damage he could've out of Gohan, one of which he knew had a similar form to him, and Dabura and Babidi had already been of the mindset that three people of less than 800 kiri would still be enough to fill up Boo's meter.
I find Dabra's quote about desiring fun to be conflicting with what actually happened. Why would he stop mid-battle to return to Babidi only to have Vegeta do the work for him? If he wanted to have his fun and was even willing to hold back to do so, why would he end his own battle? He was also confident in taking on all 3 Saiyans at once but never followed through with this. You'd have to think he would have rather done that as opposed to allowing Vegeta to have all the fun. That doesn't add up to me.
Dabura was smiling the entire battle, so he clearly was enjoying himself, as said he would. On the other hand, Gohan was clearly exherting himself and was getting surprised at every turn.
Gohan seemed more surprised by the fact he managed to break the sword than Dabura himself was, hilariously enough, since the artwork only shows him gritting his teeth. His face isn't accompanied by the usual "!!" used to convey shock. He was back to smiling right after.
Throughout the entire battle, Dabura hardly even broke a sweat, as opposed to Gohan who needed to take a Senzu to recover. I think it's made pretty clear he wasn't taking Gohan seriously at all.
But then by this logic, why wouldn't Goku be referring to Super Perfect Cell if we are to assume the strongest form? He was certainly able to sense both him and Gohan from Other World as you've said, so why go with the weaker Perfect Cell? I think this opens the door to using any form of Cell for this assessment tbh.
I don't though. As I said, I go by Galu's comparison being to SPC.
I agree that logically this makes sense, but I'd argue that the order of the manga's events refutes this.
"At the level we are now, anyway. He would have been bad news before." ----> "I see... So Kakarot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall too."
Perhaps I'm focusing too much on semantics, but Vegeta still confirmed Goku's ascension to SSJ2 despite the contrary quote. Doesn't make much sense to me if Goku already confirmed they were above that level.
All this really says is that Vegeta was given physical evidence to his assumptions rather than the inference from Goku's statement.
I disagree with this. First of all, there is ample evidence for Super Perfect Cell being at or around the level of SSJ2 Kid Gohan. I don't see much evidence for him being far below Gohan.
I'd call into question Cell's accuracy in judging his own and Gohan's power. After all, he completely underestimated Gohan in their prior bout, despite his standing Ki being enough for him to key on to how strong Gohan may be.
Chapter: 414 (DBZ 220), P14.2
Context: after getting hit by Cell’s attack while saving Vegeta
Gohan: “Cell’s power has gone up more than I thought…”
It's important to note though that this is just after Gohan had taken the damage from Cell without having guarded, suggesting he may have been confident in tanking the blast prior and his calculations were incorrect.
Goku then makes it clear that Gohan can only overcome Cell with his absolute full power.
Chapter: 416 (DBZ 222), P7.2, P8.1-2
Context: as Gohan and Cell’s Kamehamehas clash
Goku: “Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!”
Gohan: “I’m doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…”
Goku: “Somewhere in your mind you’re thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don’t worry about it! We’ll undo the damage with the dragonballs!”
I wouldn't say that's strictly true, considering there was also this statement prior:
Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”
Goku wasn't concerned with Gohan's condition and was confident he could win regardless, with him surpassing his limits being a bit of a wildcard. Seems to suggest he believed Gohan wouldn't need his full power to overcome Cell. If we do go by them being comparable though, that would only validate what Tapion said (which I'll reply to).
This leads me back to my original point then. If it's as you say that the damage correlates to the form of Super Saiyan (supported by Gohan's statement on SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta), why did the meter hardly move despite Gohan needing a senzu bean after the fight?
Dabura isn't a SS2, so it wouldn't really affect anything if believing this to be about the state rather than the tier of power.
The intent of MSSJ is indeed to reduce the strain of the Super Saiyan form, but you're leaving out the fact that we don't know how long Gohan and Dabra fought.
We don't, which is why judging the length of the battle is all up to assumptions. What we do know though is that Gohan was tiring and Dabura seemed perfectly fine and even toying with him for the most part for reasons Tapion has mentioned. That said, it wouldn't really matter how long the battle had went on.
I find Dabra's quote about desiring fun to be conflicting with what actually happened. Why would he stop mid-battle to return to Babidi only to have Vegeta do the work for him? If he wanted to have his fun and was even willing to hold back to do so, why would he end his own battle? He was also confident in taking on all 3 Saiyans at once but never followed through with this. You'd have to think he would have rather done that as opposed to allowing Vegeta to have all the fun. That doesn't add up to me.
Turning an ally into an enemy and watching them kill their "friends" is the kind of sadistic thing you'd expect of someone who lives up to the reputation of King of the Demon Realm and an evil wizard's right-hand man. It also allows Babidi to gain an additional ally, which would benefit his master. If he was willing to fight against 3 people he expected to be below Yakon wouldn't really be more than a temporary distraction for him anyway despite him seeming to enjoy the idea, so whilst it was something he'd enjoy, fighting the Saiyans was still something he was willing to forego if a better idea presented itself.
Tapion said:
This is the Dragon Books' input on the subject, if you want to trust it.
Nice catch, though I'm not sure how accurately to take it when considering a lot of such entries like to present events on the surface level and stay in the present rather than be an omniscient source for what will occur in the series.
Given the fact Vegeta was shown to be capable of increasing his power with the Galick Gun even without knowing how to control his energy, it is quite likely that Cui's technique was significantly amplified from his normal battle power. It'd also have been a cheap, off-guard shot.
That is possible, though I wouldn't say it's probable. Vegeta still needed to charge up his Ki a fair bit, whereas Cui launched these blasts without any preparation and didn't present them as having the same level of significance (no attack name or great width of the blast as is the norm).
Gohan was trying to fly as fast as he could to save Vegeta from certain death, so he would have to be putting out all of his power.
Chapter: 317 (DBZ 123), P3.3
Context: still after having given most of his ki to Piccolo
Kuririn: “Dammit! I hardly have any ki left, so I can’t fly very fast!”
If he was at full-power and knew the attack was coming, he'd have been perfectly capable to mount a defense. That means it wasn't off-guard.
He still put forth no counter measure such as a blast to counter it from afar or attempt to deflect it. This suggests to me he believed himself capable of tanking it before being proven wrong, which amounts about as well to being off-guard.
Goku tells Gohan to make his power 'explode' in order to eliminate Cell:
He does, but as I said in the previous part of this response, it doesn't seem as though Goku was adamant on the idea Gohan would have to rely on going past his limits.
Not refuting the idea of Gohan getting a rage boost at the end, as I fully support that, though I'd question Goku's mindset that it was a necessity when considering his attitude immediately after Gohan confirms his Ki has been cut to less than half.
That said though, what chain would you go by for the characters in discussion? SS2 Enraged Gohan >> SS2 Pre-Majin Vegeta > Dabura ~ SPC > SS2 CG Gohan = SS2 Boo Gohan?
The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies. Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan.
SON GOHAN
Dormant power that knows no bottom, even though he was trained from infancy. Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan.
The Daizenshuu 4 asserts that Saiyan genes possess extraordinarily good compatibility with human blood, allowing children with far more formidable power than usual to be born, and the Daizenshuu 2 states that Gohan is an "elite" who was easily capable of handling the training he was put through as a four-year old, and then affirms that this is because he surpasses the average Saiyan. The way this is worded would heavily imply that this is supposed to be saying that his endurance is even better than that of a pure Saiyan.
That said...
Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P4.3
Context: after hitting Gohan
Freeza: “You won’t be damaged from [an attack of] that level.
And that was a massive gap.
No.17: “Anyway, it’s been a long time, Son Gohan…It’s been about 1 year, right? I’m surprised you managed to survive after taking a beating like that…”
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Having more dormant power than a Saiyan does not equal inheriting their durability though. I can see that being the case (Even if I think Dabra holding back is bullshit), but you're reaching with the Daizenshuu entries. They're just referring to latent power.
The Cell example specifically goes against what you told SSJ2 on Dabra being stronger than Gohan. Cell's attack at least bruised Gohan, Dabra is even stronger than Cell, but seemingly dealt less damage to Gohan.
But know, this reminds me of this time a debater argued having more latent power means having a tougher body to handle such power. You'd probably agree with him here, if I never told you that was actually VoR trying to argue Nappa > Boo Arc Tenshinhan
Having more dormant power than a Saiyan does not equal inheriting their durability though. I can see that being the case (Even if I think Dabra holding back is bullshit), but you're reaching with the Daizenshuu entries. They're just referring to latent power.
"Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through at four because he is a halfling and has dormant power way better than a normal Saiyan" is a direct reference to his durability. Not to mention that such a disadvantage in relation to a pure Saiyan would've been noted if it were true.
The Cell example specifically goes against what you told SSJ2 on Dabra being stronger than Gohan. Cell's attack at least bruised Gohan, Dabra is even stronger than Cell, but seemingly dealt less damage to Gohan.
Goku said Gohan's ki wasn't even the tiniest bit lower, so Cell's attack did exactly horseshit.
But know, this reminds me of this time a debater argued having more latent power means having a tougher body to handle such power. You'd probably agree with him here, if I never told you that was actually VoR
Well yeah, I think you could say that future Trunks (post Kaioshin's training) is stronger than Boo saga SSJ Goku based on their respective mastery of the sword... but then we have Dabura receiving SSJ2 Trunks' blows fairly well, while it'd be a stretch to say Dabura from the Boo arc could handle hits stronger than Majin Vegeta SSJ2 with no apparent injuries... as those hits were enough to visibly damage someone if his own power, SSJ2 Goku, quickly. So it seems Dabura gained some considerable amount of power in the future, be it by training or meditation.
Well yeah, I think you could say that future Trunks (post Kaioshin's training) is stronger than Boo saga SSJ Goku based on their respective mastery of the sword... but then we have Dabura receiving SSJ2 Trunks' blows fairly well, while it'd be a stretch to say Dabura from the Boo arc could handle hits stronger than Majin Vegeta SSJ2 with no apparent injuries... as those hits were enough to visibly damage someone if his own power, SSJ2 Goku, quickly. So it seems Dabura gained some considerable amount of power in the future, be it by training or meditation.
