Debunking the Movie 5 Base Goku > 100% Final Form Freeza

[Pakl]

Even though it's rarely discussed, I sometimes hear this claim that Movie 5 Goku was stronger than 100% Final Form Freeza in his base state. I will try to pour some light into this into proving how ridiculous this claim is. Let's start from the beginning.

Dragon Ball Z Movie 5: "The Incredible Strongest vs Strongest"
was released on July 20 1991 between episodes 99 to 100 when SSjin Goku and 100% Final Form Freeza were about to clash with the Super Nouva and the Kamehameha, meaning movie 5 was released during the Freeza Arc while Goku and Freeza were still fighting. Movie 5, however shows that Goku defeated Freeza which means the movie is an alternative universe based on the Freeza Arc, likely Goku killing Freeza and goes back to Earth before Namek explodes and there was no Yardrat.

In the beginning of the movie, Roshi says that Goku got stronger since he returned from the Namek:

Spoiler

From this, we can conclude that Movie 5 Goku > Freeza Arc Goku. That makes sense because Coola was intended to be stronger than Freeza who was close to SSjin Goku when they fought so Goku has to be stronger in order to defeat Coola.

Now to the controversy:

After fighting a little bit with Base Goku, Coola says that Goku does as well as he expected and enough to have defeated his brother.

Spoiler

Based on that, there are some who assume that means that Goku got a huge Zenkai that his base form is now is as strong as his SSjin self when he fought Freeza. However there are some issues with this statement.

First, nothing indicates in the movie that Goku got a Zenkai. There was no statement of Goku being stronger than he was in the beginning of the movie. Second, the fight between Base Goku and True Form Coola was to mimic the fight of Base Goku vs True Form Freeza so why would Goku suddenly get some huge ass power up?

Third, people seem to forget that Coola thinks the same about Base Goku in the beginning of the movie after he heavily injured him.

Spoiler

So, unless you think that Goku got some imaginary 50x boost in power in movie 5 after returning from Namek, Coola's comment is debunked right there and clearly doesnt refer to Freeza's 100%.

Fourth, Coola later states that SSjin Goku was the reason why Freeza was no match for him which seems to contradict his first statement about Base Goku

Spoiler

Now, people may claim that this is no contradiction because Movie 5 Base Goku was said to be "enough to have defeated Freeza" while SSjin Goku was stated to be the reason that Freeza was "no match for Goku" so in short: Movie 5 Base Goku > 100% Freeza while Movie 5 SSjin Goku >>>> 100% Freeza.

However, even this idea is easily contradicted. Remember, Goku was using the Kaioken x10 and x20 but Coola doesn't seem to say anything about it. All the opposite. Coola laughs at Goku's Kaioken levels and calls it "dull"

Spoiler

So, if Base Goku was really stronger than 100% Freeza, why would Coola inly comment that SSjin Goku was the reason why Freeza was no match? If Base Goku was already stronger than Freeza then obviously Freeza would not be a match for Goku using Kaioken x10 and x20. The way it's shown implies that only Movie 5 SSjin Goku would strong enough for Freeza to be no match for him.

Fifth, Goku's reaction to Coola after he transforms doesnt seem to imply True Form Coola was as strong as 100% Freeza.

Spoiler

Goku is like "OMG he is EVEN stronger than Freeza!!"

If True Form Coola was already as strong as 100% Freeza or even close to that level, why would Goku be so shocked and use the word "even"? When someone uses these kinds of words, it's overall to imply that character A surpasses character B but not by multiple times. When someone is way stronger than someone else, he is described to be "far stronger" or "many times stronger" etc etc. Goku's statement doesn’t imply such a huge ass gap but just that Coola is stronger.

Sixth, as we all know, the next movie villian is stronger than the last one as stated by Koyama himself and that's the traditional way of Dragon Ball Z anime.

"In handling the scripts for the films, what I always worried about each time was the problem of what to do about the opponent Goku fights against. That’s because, at the very least, they had to be stronger than [the ones from] the previous movie."

That means Super 13 > Metal Coola > Coola. Metal Coola is obviously not 50x stronger than SSjin Goku on Namek , let alone Super 13. TOEI likes to make the next characters in the anime stronger than the previous ones too. Just look at how strong Pure Boo was in the anime. It makes no sense that Goku would be so strong in base when the mvie is based on the Freeza Arc fight and SSjin was just announced as a big deal.

To summarize, Coola's statement about Base Goku being strong enough to have defeated Freeza is very vague and is contradicted by absolutely any other statement in the movie, next movies and statements by Koyama himself.

Movies basically mimic the fights from the anime at the time they were made/released so we can just conclude that True Form Coola is just overall stronger than True Form Freeza who fought Base Goku before he reached 50% of his power while 5th Form Coola is just overall stronger than 100% Final Form Freeza. Movie 5 Goku is just overall stronger than what he was vs Freeza when he fought Freeza just like Roshi implied.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I agree. Goku vs Cooler before SSJ mirrors Goku vs 50% Freeza. Both Freeza and Cooler noticed Goku had Kaio-Ken before he even used it and powered up well beyond what Kaio-Ken Goku could ever do.

 

[Dagon]

You dropped the ball on this one, good attempt though.

Even though it's rarely discussed, I sometimes hear this claim that Movie 5 Goku was stronger than 100% Final Form Freeza in his base state. I will try to pour some light into this into proving how ridiculous this claim is. Let's start from the beginning.

Appeal to ridicule right out the gate.

Dragon Ball Z Movie 5: "The Incredible Strongest vs Strongest"
was released on July 20 1991 between episodes 99 to 100 when SSjin Goku and 100% Final Form Freeza were about to clash with the Super Nouva and the Kamehameha, meaning movie 5 was released during the Freeza Arc while Goku and Freeza were still fighting. Movie 5, however shows that Goku defeated Freeza which means the movie is an alternative universe based on the Freeza Arc, likely Goku killing Freeza and goes back to Earth before Namek explodes and there was no Yardrat.

In the beginning of the movie, Roshi says that Goku got stronger since he returned from the Namek:

Spoiler

From this, we can conclude that Movie 5 Goku > Freeza Arc Goku. That makes sense because Coola was intended to be stronger than Freeza who was close to SSjin Goku when they fought so Goku has to be stronger in order to defeat Coola.

Now to the controversy:

After fighting a little bit with Base Goku, Coola says that Goku does as well as he expected and enough to have defeated his brother.

Spoiler

Based on that, there are some who assume that means that Goku got a huge Zenkai that his base form is now is as strong as his SSjin self when he fought Freeza. However there are some issues with this statement.

First, nothing indicates in the movie that Goku got a Zenkai. There was no statement of Goku being stronger than he was in the beginning of the movie. Second, the fight between Base Goku and True Form Coola was to mimic the fight of Base Goku vs True Form Freeza so why would Goku suddenly get some huge ass power up?

Third, people seem to forget that Coola thinks the same about Base Goku in the beginning of the movie after he heavily injured him.

Spoiler

So, unless you think that Goku got some imaginary 50x boost in power in movie 5 after returning from Namek, Coola's comment is debunked right there and clearly doesnt refer to Freeza's 100%.

1. Fair point. The narrative doesn't require a zenkai.
2. Then it just means Goku is that much stronger upon returning from Namek. If anything, the Moro saga in DBS confirms that Yardrat training is super effective.
3. Calling it imaginary is an attempt at poisoning the well.

Fourth, Coola later states that SSjin Goku was the reason why Freeza was no match for him which seems to contradict his first statement about Base Goku

Spoiler

Now, people may claim that this is no contradiction because Movie 5 Base Goku was said to be "enough to have defeated Freeza" while SSjin Goku was stated to be the reason that Freeza was "no match for Goku" so in short: Movie 5 Base Goku > 100% Freeza while Movie 5 SSjin Goku >>>> 100% Freeza.

However, even this idea is easily contradicted. Remember, Goku was using the Kaioken x10 and x20 but Coola doesn't seem to say anything about it. All the opposite. Coola laughs at Goku's Kaioken levels and calls it "dull"

Spoiler

So, if Base Goku was really stronger than 100% Freeza, why would Coola inly comment that SSjin Goku was the reason why Freeza was no match? If Base Goku was already stronger than Freeza then obviously Freeza would not be a match for Goku using Kaioken x10 and x20. The way it's shown implies that only Movie 5 SSjin Goku would strong enough for Freeza to be no match for him.

Cooler doesn't attach a comparison to the "dull" statement. He doesn't say it is "dull" compared to Freeza. Therefore there is no contradiction due to know "value" or quantifier attached to "dull" in the narrative. It would be reasonable to expect Cooler calls it "dull" in comparison to himself.

Fifth, Goku's reaction to Coola after he transforms doesnt seem to imply True Form Coola was as strong as 100% Freeza.

Spoiler

Goku is like "OMG he is EVEN stronger than Freeza!!"

If True Form Coola was already as strong as 100% Freeza or even close to that level, why would Goku be so shocked and use the word "even"? When someone uses these kinds of words, it's overall to imply that character A surpasses character B but not by multiple times. When someone is way stronger than someone else, he is described to be "far stronger" or "many times stronger" etc etc. Goku's statement doesn’t imply such a huge ass gap but just that Coola is stronger.

Seems a pedantic point to make. Are we going to make a scatter plot for which adverbs are used for power statements across the series? Without a value assigned to this in the narrative, there's nothing concrete to go on.

Sixth, as we all know, the next movie villian is stronger than the last one as stated by Koyama himself and that's the traditional way of Dragon Ball Z anime.

"In handling the scripts for the films, what I always worried about each time was the problem of what to do about the opponent Goku fights against. That’s because, at the very least, they had to be stronger than [the ones from] the previous movie."

That means Super 13 > Metal Coola > Coola. Metal Coola is obviously not 50x stronger than SSjin Goku on Namek , let alone Super 13. TOEI likes to make the next characters in the anime stronger than the previous ones too. Just look at how strong Pure Boo was in the anime. It makes no sense that Goku would be so strong in base when the mvie is based on the Freeza Arc fight and SSjin was just announced as a big deal.

It simply means the movies scale up from what Movie 5 presents. If that means the movie "dimension" is 50x more powerful past movie 5, it is what it is.

Furthermore, the Chozenshuu says Cooler's 4th form is "equivalent to Freeza's final form."

クウラ Kūra ☆
Coola ☆
Freeza’s older brother
[His.] Appears in "Incredible Strongest verses Strongest". A space invader, like his younger brother Freeza. He’s a warrior with greater power than Freeza. He came to Earth to challenger Goku after Goku defeated Freeza, and a fierce battle unfolded between him and Super Saiyan Goku. Previously, he had let Goku’s space pod slip by when it was launched from Planet Vegeta.
[Par.] Personality-wise he is aggressive, proud, and even crueler than Freeza. He ordinarily has a form equivalent to Freeza’s final form, and can perform one further transformation. In "Super Saiyan Extinction Plan" he is revived bt Dr. Lychee who also harbors a gruge against Saiyans as an embodiment of his grudge. He was revived from Hell and raided a town in "Dragon Ball GT".
[Tech.] Energy bullets that destroy planets
[Bat.] Super Saiyan Goku’s energy wave knocked back him and his energy bullet all the way into the sun.

It doesn't say if this is quantitative or qualitative, as in, whether it is in power or sequence or both. We can deduce at least sequence for certain based on Cooler saying he can transform "one more time" than Freeza. In addition to the other statements about base Goku's power compared to Freeza, it is not without reason to conclude this may apply to power as well, although it is not entirely necessary in the narrative. 4th form Cooler may be somewhat weaker than Freeza, or equivalent, based on the data.

To summarize, Coola's statement about Base Goku being strong enough to have defeated Freeza is very vague and is contradicted by absolutely any other statement in the movie, next movies and statements by Koyama himself.

Movies basically mimic the fights from the anime at the time they were made/released so we can just conclude that True Form Coola is just overall stronger than True Form Freeza who fought Base Goku before he reached 50% of his power while 5th Form Coola is just overall stronger than 100% Final Form Freeza. Movie 5 Goku is just overall stronger than what he was vs Freeza when he fought Freeza just like Roshi implied.

There's actually no contradiction, you instead scale movies and events ahead of movie 5 in the timeline to a smaller scale, then post-hoc conclude that movie 5 can't scale this high because it doesn't fit with the scaling you determined for the other events.

The movie can visually mimic elements from the series without mimicking the power scale.

I agree. Goku vs Cooler before SSJ mirrors Goku vs 50% Freeza. Both Freeza and Cooler noticed Goku had Kaio-Ken before he even used it and powered up well beyond what Kaio-Ken Goku could ever do.

What was said?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What was said?

When?