Did Frieza increase his power when blocking kkx20 Kamehameha?

[Papasmurf]

 

[p123]

Nice...

How does Goku's comment make sense if Freeza didn't raise his power?

Goku's mentality...

If Freeza is bluffing I can win.

If he's not bluffing I can't win.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It makes sense because it confirms that Freeza was really that powerful. Goku's Kaio-Ken x20 was a shot in the dark based on what he said.

Emphasis on the quotes:

"And if he's really only using 50% of his power, I'm sunk anyway."
"He isn't bluffing. He really is using only half his power."

Goku doesn't say he raised his power. Goku quote was a realization that 50% Freeza was that powerful based on what took place.

I think the main takeaway is that 50% Freeza is just a beast.

 

[p123]

I don't understand.

Does Goku think he can kill current power Freeza? Yes or no?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku doesn't think he can do anything. He's hoping that Freeza's bluffing so that the Kaio-Ken x20 will make a difference.

He failed. Freeza really was using 50% of his power, as stated by Goku. That means Freeza's power is no different than it was when Goku was hoping that Freeza was bluffing. There's no need for Freeza to raise his power.

 

[p123]

I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying.

The fact that Goku can hope that Freeza is bluffing, suggests that he is capable of taking out 50% Freeza, or else, why hope he is bluffing?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku can hope because he knows (outside of the Genki-Dama) that it's Kaio-Ken x20 or bust. At the very least, if Freeza is telling a lie and closer to 100%, there's a chance it might succeed without having to factor in an entire half of power he isn't using. Goku goes from saying Freeza was bluffing, to saying he's not bluffing, to hoping he's bluffing again. Nigga is in-denial and it's very clear based on the chapter alone.

When all is said and done, Goku confirmed that Freeza really was using 50% of his power. Krillin thought Freeza should've took damage from the KMHMH and was confused as to why he didn't. That means there was no clear indication of Freeza raising his power from at least 2 people who sensed him prior to the Kaio-Ken x20 attack.

You can say he raised his power, but more than enough suggests Freeza's power stayed the same. At the very least, Krillin's line tells us the KKx20+KMHMH should've been close enough to 50% Freeza to at least damage him more than it did. Not much more than that.

 

[Void]

Why does Goku say please let him be bluffing this time right before he fires the KKx20 Kamehameha? He already said it right before 50% Freeza initially attacks...

 

[Evil Vegeta]

That's exactly why the sequence is stupid. How do you go from, "Ha ha, you're bluffing", to, "He's not bluffing", to, "Please be buffing"?

Lol, dat denial. This is why I keep it simple and just put 50% Freeza>>>>>>Goku, and 50% Freeza>Kaio-Ken x20 Goku. Goku might've overestimated what he could've done with Kaio-Ken x20 and underestimated how tough 50% Freeza was at the same time. Neither point contradicts the other.

 

[ahill1]

That's different though. Initially, Saiyan Paladin, the "He is not bluffing" is just a reference to Freeza being actually able to tear Goku apart, as Goku was merely going by the chi he was sensing and couldn't possibly know if that was 50% Freeza or no. Later, the "please let the '50% part' be just a bluff" is, obviously, directed to Freeza only using half of his power.

As for the topic, yeah, Freeza increased his powers, as Goku concluded the "50% stuff" wasn't merely a bluff, meaning Freeza had to go past it for Goku to realize it. But as Kenshi said, it should be less than 70%, as Freeza made a big deal out of it later. 60% sounds about right.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

He didn't increase his power, lol. It's obvious 50% Freeza never used anywhere near full-effort when he first powered-up, which is the only thing required to convince Goku what took place. No one said anything about Freeza's power going up. The only thing said was Freeza should've took more damage.

"He really is using half of his power" means exactly what it says. He wouldn't be "using half" if he just raised it. It's a confirmation based on what was stated earlier (Freeza was at 50%). Nothing more.

 

[ahill1]

Goku said Freeza's line about him only using 50% wasn't just a bluff, which he couldn't possibly know if Freeza didn't actually use more than 1/2 blocking the KMHMH. How would Goku figure Freeza wasn't bluffing if this latter stayed in the half power? Goku was hoping Freeza's 1/2 was actually his full one so he could finish it with the Kaiken x20 + KMHMH and the only way he would reach the conclusion that his estimations were wrong is if Freeza actually changed his battle power.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

If Freeza raised his effort (Freeza said he wasn't going to kill Goku so quickly so we know he was holding-back despite being at 50%) to stop Goku's KMHMH, it still gets the point across. It also aligns perfectly with "he's using 50%" because Goku's confirming something that was stated earlier. If Freeza had to raise his power to convince Goku that he was at 50%, then it means he's not using 50% of his power, right?

The statement would be completely useless because Freeza wouldn't have been using 50% of his power at that point. He would've been using more than that, and Goku (along with Krillin, who thought the KMHMH should've damaged Freeza) would've somehow missed this phantom power-up altogether for...whatever reason.

Goku can't possibly know what Freeza''s fully capable of if he's still restraining himself at 50%. After putting forth all of his effort to stop the KMHMH? That gives Goku a better understanding of the situation.

 

[Kyo]

burst up (something characters always miss) -> block -> back down

 

[ahill1]

I also agree that Goku's comment about Freeza being at 50% would be better worded out if it was something like "He really has been using 50% of his power". I see Goku's comment as referring more about to what Freeza was using the whole time against him, not what he used to stop the KMHMH, but I can see how the wording would led to this confusion. I'll use some statements you put up earlier:

Goku: "And if he's really only using 50% of his power, I'm sunk anyway."

Why would Goku be screwed if Freeza was only using half of his power? Because if so, Freeza could easily increase his power even more and prevent from being killed or fatally injured. The Kaioken x20 KMHMH was something set up to kill/injury someone at Freeza's 50% power, but if this latter can quickly increase it, then the attack is rendered useless. That's why Goku is hoping Freeza wouldn't just be using 50% of his power and rather, his full power.


Goku: "He isn't bluffing. He really is using only half his power."

The emphasis isn't exactly on how strong 50% Freeza actually was, but is on the validity of his clains (that being, using just half power). If the idea Goku really wanted to pass was that Freeza 50% was stronger than he thought, then there would be no point in affirming Freeza isn't bluffing. The emphasis is all about on how Freeza was telling the truth as to be using 1/2, and I don't see how he'd conclude it wasn't a bluff if Freeza stayed at 50%. If Freeza stayed at the same power, then what he said about being at 50% could very well be a bluff, right?

That's at least my interpretation of the scene.

If Freeza had to raise his power to convince Goku that he was at 50%, then it means he's not using 50% of his power, right?

I don't see how it means it. It means he is using 50%, but nothing more than that. If Freeza just uses 50% and doesn't show any signal that he could increase it even more, then Goku could very well be thinking he is bluffing about the 50% part and is in reality using all of his powers. If Freeza increases it, then Goku will know "so the power he was using really wasn't his full, so it must in fact be 50%, like he said".

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Why would Goku be screwed if Freeza was only using half of his power? Because if so, Freeza could easily increase his power even more and prevent from being killed or fatally injured. The Kaioken x20 KMHMH was something set up to kill/injury someone at Freeza's 50% power, but if this latter can quickly increase it, then the attack is rendered useless. That's why Goku is hoping Freeza wouldn't just be using 50% of his power and rather, his full power.

Because that's still 50% more power he'd have to worry about in case the attack succeeded in seriously damaging Freeza. Goku was able to make Cell lose a lot of Chi by making him regenerate, but Cell's remaining power that he had yet to use would've still been more than enough to beat Goku at full-power. If Freeza is near his max and takes serious damage from the attack, that at least leaves them with an opportunity to deal with a significantly weaker Freeza. If Freeza is only using 50% of his power, then the damage likely won't matter because Freeza would just kill them with all of the power he had remaining.

The emphasis isn't exactly on how strong 50% Freeza actually was, but is on the validity of his clains (that being, using just half power).

That's not enough to differentiate my point, though. Goku's confirming that Freeza's only using 50% of his power. There's no reason for that statement to be made if Freeza clearly wasn't using that amount. It'd make more sense for him to say, "Wait. His power is even greater!" or for someone on the sidelines to say it. No one said anything.

If the idea Goku really wanted to pass was that Freeza 50% was stronger than he thought, then there would be no point in affirming Freeza isn't bluffing.

There is a point when 50% Freeza had yet to show how strong he really was. Besides pummeling Goku and slicing the planet with his attack, he was still holding-back a good bit at that level. Blocking the KMHMH only required him to use more effort, not more power.

The emphasis is all about on how Freeza was telling the truth as to be using 1/2

Then that means Freeza remained at 50% power because he didn't speak of Freeza being any different. His KMHMH being blocked merely proved without a doubt that Freeza was only using 50% of his power. Freeza's not telling the truth if he's using more than 50% of his power when he was kicking Goku's ass at 50%. That alone would render Goku's statement entirely useless for no particular reason.

and I don't see how he'd conclude it wasn't a bluff if Freeza stayed at 50%.

I do. By Freeza using all of his effort to stop the attack. Maybe that explanation doesn't work for you. That's cool. I think it's valid enough to compliment Goku's understanding that Freeza was using 50%, as well as Krillin's surprise at 50% Freeza not taking damage based on what he saw. Both of those statements tell me his power didn't change. When Freeza's power changes, it's usually noted. I don't see why that wouldn't apply here if he went beyond 50% of his power.

If Freeza stayed at the same power, then what he said about being at 50% could very well be a bluff, right?

Nope. Goku saw Freeza raise his effort enough to stop the KMHMH. That alone convinced Goku what it was. And you don't need to raise your power to put forth more effort because we know 50% Freeza was enjoying what he was doing to Goku without any visible strain.

I don't see how it means it. It means he is using 50%, but nothing more than that.

That's what I've been saying from the jump. If he's using 50%, it means he's using 50%.

If Freeza just uses 50% and doesn't show any signal that he could increase it even more, then Goku could very well be thinking he is bluffing about the 50% part and is in reality using all of his powers.

That's called wishful thinking, actually. The image I posted clearly shows Goku is hoping that it's BS.

If Freeza increases it, then Goku will know "so the power he was using really wasn't his full, so it must in fact be 50%, like he said".

If Freeza increased it, then Goku would've never said he was using half of his power. He would've said he was using more than that. Goku can sense Chi well enough. If there was noticeable difference between Freeza using half of his power when he was kicking Goku's ass and Freeza using more than half of his power blocking his KMHMH, it would've most likely been noted.

Way I see it, Freeza got serious and raised his effort at half-power to stop the attack altogether. A phantom power increase noted by no one isn't really necessary here. I get that most of you believe Goku wouldn't reach this conclusion unless Freeza's power went up, but I simply don't see it that way. Freeza's power going up wouldn't confirm anything other than he can raise his power. Goku confirmed that Freeza was only using a certain amount of power after he stopped it. Freeza should be no higher than 50% right there.

 

[Keedounan]

Freeza didn't increased his power. At least, according to this statement:

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P1.3-4
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Goku: “Wh-what…! That didn’t effect him much…! S-so that wasn’t a bluff either…He really is only using half his power…”

Keywords: "is", which means that Frieza was still at 50 %. If he was using more than that, the statement would be more like "he really was only using half his power".

So, how Goku did figured out ? I wonder...Ginyu did figure out that Goku was still holding back (though he didn't know in which way) without any power-up happening.

 

[Kyo]

Ginyu figured that Goku was holding back the same way Freeza knew Goku was holding back, or how Tenshinhan knew Roshi was holding back. If they're even enough they can just tell how it feels I guess.

burst up (something characters always miss) -> block -> back down

 

[SSJ2]

Goku said Freeza's line about him only using 50% wasn't just a bluff, which he couldn't possibly know if Freeza didn't actually use more than 1/2 blocking the KMHMH. How would Goku figure Freeza wasn't bluffing if this latter stayed in the half power? Goku was hoping Freeza's 1/2 was actually his full one so he could finish it with the Kaiken x20 + KMHMH and the only way he would reach the conclusion that his estimations were wrong is if Freeza actually changed his battle power.

It's still impossible for Goku to even know Freeza's half power until he showed his full power. Even if Freeza did power up to block the KHH, how would Goku have any idea he had further power beyond that?

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

I personally think he he must have stayed st 50%. On my list if KKx20 Goku = 50% Frieza, Frieza would need to be at 65-70% to tank the Kamehameha like he did, and I don't think he had enough control to power up that quickly.