Does FPSSJ/MSSJ have a higher multi than SSJ?

[Super Neko Majin Z]

For years I've just assumed it was the same because everyone says it's the same thing but with no stamina drain, but then I thought about what Goku said about how reducing the drain would help to draw more power out of the form. Now call me crazy, but doesn't getting more power from the form mean it has a higher multiplier? It doesn't sound like it's increasing your base, it's something specific to FPSSJ. I want to hear you guys' thoughts on this.

 

[freezamite]

For years I've just assumed it was the same because everyone says it's the same thing but with no stamina drain, but then I thought about what Goku said about how reducing the drain would help to draw more power out of the form. Now call me crazy, but doesn't getting more power from the form mean it has a higher multiplier? It doesn't sound like it's increasing your base, it's something specific to FPSSJ. I want to hear you guys' thoughts on this.

Well, it happens we can't call you crazy because that's how it works.
Firstly, for all the regular saiyans and hybrids (by regular I mean that they don't have the SSJ unlocked like Goten and Trunks) it's impossible to turn into a SSJ without reaching the limit of the base state before, or in other words, since the Android saga the base state for Goku, Vegeta, Trunks or Gohan can't get stronger.
So very single power up you see is achieved through evolving the SSJ forms. The FPSSJ is nothing more than a SSJ that has been fully mastered and that stresses the body the minimum a SSJ can do, allowing for much greater power levels.
That concept was introduced as far as the Saiyans saga, when Nappa despite being stronger than Goku was fodder to him until he erased the emotional stress of his body and started to fight at his full force.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

No, SSjin is just better than ASSjin/USSjin that's all.

 

[freezamite]

No, SSjin is just better than ASSjin/USSjin that's all.

True, but wouldn't this answer be a "yes" to the question he made in the OP?
I mean, even if the SSJ was the most balanced form it still was the SSJ multiplier the one that changed since the base forms can't evolve any further once you turn into a SSJ.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

No, SSjin is just better than ASSjin/USSjin that's all.

True, but wouldn't this answer be a "yes" to the question he made in the OP?
I mean, even if the SSJ was the most balanced form it still was the SSJ multiplier the one that changed since the base forms can't evolve any further once you turn into a SSJ.

Why wouldn't their base form increase as well Especially Goku's SSJ gaved Cell a tough fight.

 

[freezamite]

No, SSjin is just better than ASSjin/USSjin that's all.

True, but wouldn't this answer be a "yes" to the question he made in the OP?
I mean, even if the SSJ was the most balanced form it still was the SSJ multiplier the one that changed since the base forms can't evolve any further once you turn into a SSJ.

Why wouldn't their base form increase as well Especially Goku's SSJ gaved Cell a tough fight.

Because the definition of a SSJ is a Saiyan that surpasses the limits of the base state, limits that can't be surpassed unless you turn into a SSJ.
Vegeta explained it pretty well. He trained and trained in order to get as strong as Goku or Trunks, and eventually he hit a wall that prevented him from progressing any more. Once he realised that he wasn't getting any stronger no matter how much he trained while both Goku and a random guy that he didn't know achieved the SSJ form he got so frustrated and enraged to himself that he triggered the SSJ form.

Goku gave Cell a tough fight because he had mastered the SSJ transformation and eliminated the stress it produced to his body. Did you see what the stress did to Nappa? Being able to properly control and manipulate your ki is as important or even more than the strength you naturally have in DB, and for the SSJ form that's even more true than for any other being in the series.
The SSJ transformation Goku used against Cell was much, much stronger than the one he could previously do (more than 3,5 times stronger in fact) even when technically it still was the same SSJ transformation (that's why Goku spent a lot of days in SSJ, to get accustomed to it and erase the stress that limited the potential of the transformation).

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

True, but wouldn't this answer be a "yes" to the question he made in the OP?
I mean, even if the SSJ was the most balanced form it still was the SSJ multiplier the one that changed since the base forms can't evolve any further once you turn into a SSJ.

Why wouldn't their base form increase as well Especially Goku's SSJ gaved Cell a tough fight.

Because the definition of a SSJ is a Saiyan that surpasses the limits of the base state, limits that can't be surpassed unless you turn into a SSJ.
Vegeta explained it pretty well. He trained and trained in order to get as strong as Goku or Trunks, and eventually he hit a wall that prevented him from progressing any more. Once he realised that he wasn't getting any stronger no matter how much he trained while both Goku and a random guy that he didn't know achieved the SSJ form he got so frustrated and enraged to himself that he triggered the SSJ form.

Goku gave Cell a tough fight because he had mastered the SSJ transformation and eliminated the stress it produced to his body. Did you see what the stress did to Nappa? Being able to properly control and manipulate your ki is as important or even more than the strength you naturally have in DB, and for the SSJ form that's even more true than for any other being in the series.
The SSJ transformation Goku used against Cell was much, much stronger than the one he could previously do (more than 3,5 times stronger in fact) even when technically it still was the same SSJ transformation (that's why Goku spent a lot of days in SSJ, to get accustomed to it and erase the stress that limited the potential of the transformation).

Well yeah but limits doesn't mean anything in DB world especially Vegeta's SSjin was implied to be at least put a fight against Semi Cell which mean that his SSjin form got stronger from ROSAT.

 

[freezamite]

Well yeah but limits doesn't mean anything in DB world especially Vegeta's SSjin was implied to be at least put a fight against Semi Cell which mean that his SSjin form got stronger from ROSAT.

Yes, their SSJ form can still evolve (the SSJ2 and SSJ3 are also evolutions of the original transformation), what can't evolve is the base state. In other words, Bu saga Vegeta wasn't stronger than Androids saga Vegeta in his base state.

Edit: I didn't think I would find so many manga haters in here. Why has this message been rated negative? Any reasonable explanation besides "buuuhhh manga boring reading for nerds anime good yeah"?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Well yeah but limits doesn't mean anything in DB world especially Vegeta's SSjin was implied to be at least put a fight against Semi Cell which mean that his SSjin form got stronger from ROSAT.

Yes, their SSJ form can still evolve (the SSJ2 and SSJ3 are also evolutions of the original transformation), what can't evolve is the base state. In other words, Bu saga Vegeta wasn't stronger than Androids saga Vegeta in his base state.

Nothing states that their Ssjin forms got stronger though.

 

[freezamite]

Well yeah but limits doesn't mean anything in DB world especially Vegeta's SSjin was implied to be at least put a fight against Semi Cell which mean that his SSjin form got stronger from ROSAT.

Yes, their SSJ form can still evolve (the SSJ2 and SSJ3 are also evolutions of the original transformation), what can't evolve is the base state. In other words, Bu saga Vegeta wasn't stronger than Androids saga Vegeta in his base state.

Nothing states that their Ssjin forms got stronger though.

But its clearly stated that their base states didn't. So if the base state isn't stronger then it has to be the SSJ transformation that's better.
And even if it wasn't directly stated that the SSJ transformation got stronger when mastered, it was implicit in the explanation Goku gave about it and the stress it causes to the body. We already saw what happened to Nappa when he couldn't control his emotions -he became much weaker and slow than he really was- and the SSJ follows the same principle.

In the Bu saga, when the elder kaioshin explains the ultimate form advantages, also says something in the same lines.

 

[freezamite]

double post

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Yes, their SSJ form can still evolve (the SSJ2 and SSJ3 are also evolutions of the original transformation), what can't evolve is the base state. In other words, Bu saga Vegeta wasn't stronger than Androids saga Vegeta in his base state.

Nothing states that their Ssjin forms got stronger though.

But its clearly stated that their base states didn't. So if the base state isn't stronger then it has to be the SSJ transformation that's better.
And even if it wasn't directly stated that the SSJ transformation got stronger when mastered, it was implicit in the explanation Goku gave about it and the stress it causes to the body. We already saw what happened to Nappa when he couldn't control his emotions -he became much weaker and slow than he really was- and the SSJ follows the same principle.

In the Bu saga, when the elder kaioshin explains the ultimate form advantages, also says something in the same lines.

Then how you're gonna view the 28th tournament where Vegeta, Gohan and the kids don't have a problem fighting the likes of Android 18 and Piccolo on their base state.

 

[freezamite]

Then how you're gonna view the 28th tournament where Vegeta, Gohan and the kids don't have a problem fighting the likes of Android 18 and Piccolo on their base state.

??? I don't see where the problem is. I mean, why would Piccolo abuse his power superiority knowing that the saiyans won't turn into SSJ when even Cell didn't abuse his superiority against Goku? They were fighting for fun and none of them would have any reason to abuse the others like that.
They agreed to fight without going SSJ to protect their identities and Piccolo even helped them destroying the cameras and recording devices.
#18 could have been a bit dangerous in the sense she was after the money, but even then I don't imagine her doing that and pissing saiyans that were multiple times stronger than her.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Then how you're gonna view the 28th tournament where Vegeta, Gohan and the kids don't have a problem fighting the likes of Android 18 and Piccolo on their base state.

??? I don't see where the problem is. I mean, why would Piccolo abuse his power superiority knowing that the saiyans won't turn into SSJ when even Cell didn't abuse his superiority against Goku? They were fighting for fun and none of them would have any reason to abuse the others like that.
They agreed to fight without going SSJ to protect their identities and Piccolo even helped them destroying the cameras and recording devices.
#18 could have been a bit dangerous in the sense she was after the money, but even then I don't imagine her doing that and pissing saiyans that were multiple times stronger than her.

Piccolo's situation might be debatable but certainly not #18.

 

[freezamite]

Then how you're gonna view the 28th tournament where Vegeta, Gohan and the kids don't have a problem fighting the likes of Android 18 and Piccolo on their base state.

??? I don't see where the problem is. I mean, why would Piccolo abuse his power superiority knowing that the saiyans won't turn into SSJ when even Cell didn't abuse his superiority against Goku? They were fighting for fun and none of them would have any reason to abuse the others like that.
They agreed to fight without going SSJ to protect their identities and Piccolo even helped them destroying the cameras and recording devices.
#18 could have been a bit dangerous in the sense she was after the money, but even then I don't imagine her doing that and pissing saiyans that were multiple times stronger than her.

Piccolo's situation might be debatable but certainly not #18.

Why wouldn't she be reasonable? She was there when they all agreed to not fight as SSJ. Maybe if she met a saiyan in the finals she could've abused the situation in her favour, but let's not pretend she was some sort of Freezer or anything like that.

According to you, why did #18 hid his strength when she punched to the machine? She was even more cautious than Vegeta that outright destroyed it.

And what if when they all agreed to not turn into SSJ they didn't even think what they would do in case they had to fight Piccolo or #18? Vegeta revealed to Freezer the existence of the Dragon Balls through the scoutters and even gave Freezer directions about where to go without realising it.
Goku let Bu destroy the humanity and the earth because he wanted the kids to grew stronger.
Goku let Vegeta escape and if it wasn't because Freezer was already in Namek forcing Vegeta to go there, he still would've been in the hospital when Vegeta would've arrived for vengeance.
Gohan toyed with Cell killing his father and endangering the earth because he was in sadistic mode and enjoyed torturing him.

Let's not pretend here that every single decision the Z-warriors make is calculated to the milimeter because it isn't. That the base state can't evolve once reached it's limits is something that has been stated and it's in the very definition of what's a SSJ, and as far as I know there's nothing contradicting that.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

??? I don't see where the problem is. I mean, why would Piccolo abuse his power superiority knowing that the saiyans won't turn into SSJ when even Cell didn't abuse his superiority against Goku? They were fighting for fun and none of them would have any reason to abuse the others like that.
They agreed to fight without going SSJ to protect their identities and Piccolo even helped them destroying the cameras and recording devices.
#18 could have been a bit dangerous in the sense she was after the money, but even then I don't imagine her doing that and pissing saiyans that were multiple times stronger than her.

Piccolo's situation might be debatable but certainly not #18.

Why wouldn't she be reasonable? She was there when they all agreed to not fight as SSJ. Maybe if she met a saiyan in the finals she could've abused the situation in her favour, but let's not pretend she was some sort of Freezer or anything like that.

According to you, why did #18 hid his strength when she punched to the machine? She was even more cautious than Vegeta that outright destroyed the machine, so...

She wants to win the top prize so why would she hold back against the Saiyajins knowing that its an opportunity to win? Also Krillin was the one who told her to hold back on that punch machine unlike Vegeta who doesn't give a shit to anyone.

 

[freezamite]

She wants to win the top prize so why would she hold back against the Saiyajins knowing that its an opportunity to win? Also Krillin was the one who told her to hold back on that punch machine unlike Vegeta who doesn't give a shit to anyone.

Yes that's right, she was after the prize, but she wasn't retarded. For example, do you think that if #18 had to fight Goku in the first round of the finals she would have abused his superiority? Because there's no doubt that if she had done that in the next round Vegeta would've made her pay and she wouldn't have won either (in fact, given that scenario the more wise decision for her would be to quit the fight and try again another year).

And as I've said, even if it's true that #18 was the most dangerous of the bunch in that sense, it's also totally plausible that they didn't consider that angle when they took the decision of not turning into SSJs.

 

[SIAD]

??? I don't see where the problem is. I mean, why would Piccolo abuse his power superiority knowing that the saiyans won't turn into SSJ when even Cell didn't abuse his superiority against Goku? They were fighting for fun and none of them would have any reason to abuse the others like that.
They agreed to fight without going SSJ to protect their identities and Piccolo even helped them destroying the cameras and recording devices.
#18 could have been a bit dangerous in the sense she was after the money, but even then I don't imagine her doing that and pissing saiyans that were multiple times stronger than her.

Piccolo's situation might be debatable but certainly not #18.

Why wouldn't she be reasonable? She was there when they all agreed to not fight as SSJ. Maybe if she met a saiyan in the finals she could've abused the situation in her favour, but let's not pretend she was some sort of Freezer or anything like that.

According to you, why did #18 hid his strength when she punched to the machine? She was even more cautious than Vegeta that outright destroyed it.

And what if when they all agreed to not turn into SSJ they didn't even think what they would do in case they had to fight Piccolo or #18? Vegeta revealed to Freezer the existence of the Dragon Balls through the scoutters and even gave Freezer directions about where to go without realising it.
Goku let Bu destroy the humanity and the earth because he wanted the kids to grew stronger.
Goku let Vegeta escape and if it wasn't because Freezer was already in Namek forcing Vegeta to go there, he still would've been in the hospital when Vegeta would've arrived for vengeance.
Gohan toyed with Cell killing his father and endangering the earth because he was in sadistic mode and enjoyed torturing him.

Let's not pretend here that every single decision the Z-warriors make is calculated to the milimeter because it isn't. That the base state can't evolve once reached it's limits is something that has been stated and it's in the very definition of what's a SSJ, and as far as I know there's nothing contradicting that.

So why does Vegeta accept not to go SSJ, saying that in the end he will maintain his supremacy?

 

[freezamite]

So why does Vegeta accept not to go SSJ, saying that in the end he will maintain his supremacy?

Because he was confident he could beat the other saiyans if they didn't turn into SSJ either. What makes you think Vegeta even thought of fighting #18 or Piccolo when he said that?
His only aim was to fight Goku and Gohan at best, he didn't care for the others.

 

[SIAD]

So why does Vegeta accept not to go SSJ, saying that in the end he will maintain his supremacy?

Because he was confident he could beat the other saiyans if they didn't turn into SSJ either. What makes you think Vegeta even thought of fighting #18 or Piccolo when he said that?
His only aim was to fight Goku and Gohan at best, he didn't care for the others.

But Android # 18 was there on the ship.