Does FPSSJ/MSSJ have a higher multi than SSJ?

[freezamite]

So why does Vegeta accept not to go SSJ, saying that in the end he will maintain his supremacy?

Because he was confident he could beat the other saiyans if they didn't turn into SSJ either. What makes you think Vegeta even thought of fighting #18 or Piccolo when he said that?
His only aim was to fight Goku and Gohan at best, he didn't care for the others.

But Android # 18 was there on the ship.

Not that this mattered to Vegeta, he simply was after Goku and maybe Gohan.
And besides that, you have to look at the overall picture as well.
I mean, let's assume for a moment that Vegeta is the shrewdest character of any fictional series and that when he said that he also took into account both Piccolo and #18, meaning that his base state had to be stronger than his SSJ form was in the past. Even in that case, we would have a CONTRADICTION between that sentence and what he said about hitting a wall that no matter how much he tried he could never surpass.

I think this is a case where you're trying to adapt the manga to your stance rather than adapt your stance to the manga. Since you think the base state should have no limits, you take that sentence and spin it in a way it fits your stance, but then you also chose to ignore what Vegeta said about hitting a wall.

But Vegeta did say that he hit a wall, in fact, that's the reason he could transform into a SSJ (if he hadn't hit that wall, he wouldn't have had the frustration/rage attack needed to become SSJ). And the SSJ was also described as "the saiyan that surpasses the limits that can't be surpassed by a regular saiyan". Those facts have much, much more weight than this comment from Vegeta given their context.
I mean, I've been able to give a lot of reasonable explanations as of why they could've said that (from Vegeta not giving a shit about fighting #18 or Piccolo, which is true, to them all agreeing not to abuse that auto-imposed handicap, to them simply not thinking on all the consequences of doing that since they're not perfect, after all) and you may not like them, but on the other hand, how do you justify Vegeta's transformation into a SSJ if he didn't hit any wall and he could still improve on his base state as he had always done? How do you justify the SSJ legend being wrong about those limits that couldn't be surpassed? How do you justify the eldest kaioshin being wrong about his powers -since according to your stance the ultimate state could eventually be reached through regular training-? Can you do it?

If you look at the overall picture, there are too many solid facts pointing to one direction only to dismiss them all because of an hypothetical interpretation of why Vegeta said what he said.

 

[SIAD]

Because he was confident he could beat the other saiyans if they didn't turn into SSJ either. What makes you think Vegeta even thought of fighting #18 or Piccolo when he said that?
His only aim was to fight Goku and Gohan at best, he didn't care for the others.

But Android # 18 was there on the ship.

Not that this mattered to Vegeta, he simply was after Goku and maybe Gohan.
And besides that, you have to look at the overall picture as well.
I mean, let's assume for a moment that Vegeta is the shrewdest character of any fictional series and that when he said that he also took into account both Piccolo and #18, meaning that his base state had to be stronger than his SSJ form was in the past. Even in that case, we would have a CONTRADICTION between that sentence and what he said about hitting a wall that no matter how much he tried he could never surpass.

I think this is a case where you're trying to adapt the manga to your stance rather than adapt your stance to the manga. Since you think the base state should have no limits, you take that sentence and spin it in a way it fits your stance, but then you also chose to ignore what Vegeta said about hitting a wall.

But Vegeta did say that he hit a wall, in fact, that's the reason he could transform into a SSJ (if he hadn't hit that wall, he wouldn't have had the frustration/rage attack needed to become SSJ). And the SSJ was also described as "the saiyan that surpasses the limits that can't be surpassed by a regular saiyan". Those facts have much, much more weight than this comment from Vegeta given their context.
I mean, I've been able to give a lot of reasonable explanations as of why they could've said that (from Vegeta not giving a shit about fighting #18 or Piccolo, which is true, to them all agreeing not to abuse that auto-imposed handicap, to them simply not thinking on all the consequences of doing that since they're not perfect, after all) and you may not like them, but on the other hand, how do you justify Vegeta's transformation into a SSJ if he didn't hit any wall and he could still improve on his base state as he had always done? How do you justify the SSJ legend being wrong about those limits that couldn't be surpassed? How do you justify the eldest kaioshin being wrong about his powers -since according to your stance the ultimate state could eventually be reached through regular training-? Can you do it?

If you look at the overall picture, there are too many solid facts pointing to one direction only to dismiss them all because of an hypothetical interpretation of why Vegeta said what he said.

How many times a character reaches its limits and then exceeds its powers? For example, Gohan (Post-Ign) of the Patriarch, had taken his power to its limits, but as we saw in the series, Gohan always increased its powers before transforming into SSJ.

  And what do you think of Future Gohan Base> Future Trunks SSJ?

 

[freezamite]

How many times a character reaches its limits and then exceeds its powers? For example, Gohan (Post-Ign) of the Patriarch, had taken his power to its limits, but as we saw in the series, Gohan always increased its powers before transforming into SSJ.

And what do you think of Future Gohan Base> Future Trunks SSJ?

The Patriarch only unlocked Gohan's current hidden strength, he never said anything about bringing Gohan's strength to its limits. And yes, there were instances where some characters thought they reached their limits but then they surpassed them. But that's different, that's not Vegeta saying that he thought he reached a limit but he surpassed it, that's Vegeta confirming that he reached his limit and that he could never surpass it no matter how hard he tried.
The whole SSJ transformation for Vegeta looses its meaning if he didn't really reach his limit, and the same for the description of the SSJ form. And if you look at it, until the SSJ there always where feats that demonstrated how strong each character became. Goku for example, even when he had the KK when he arrived at Namek we had feats of him being much stronger than before, not simply having higher levels of KK.
But after the Freezer saga that doesn't happen any more. All the feats go to the SSJ forms, we never see Goku or Vegeta facing an enemy in his base state that they wouldn't have been able to defeat before to demonstrate how strong they became.

Regarding Future Gohan > Future Trunks SSJ, Trunks was much younger when that happened, and we know through present tl Trunks and Goten that the age matters as well for a saiyan (trunks was stronger because he was one year older). In fact, considering Future Trunks was as strong as Goku in Namek when he came to the present as an adult and after years of being able to turn into a SSJ, and that Gohan's base power was much higher than his father's it's perfectly plausible that he could be stronger than a young Trunks SSJ.

Think that Goku was the best character when it came to ki control. Vegeta surpassed him because he was much, much stronger to begin with, but once they had to compete evolving as SSJs Goku was always better than him. So even in his first day as a SSJ it's not surprising that he was much better than other SSJs much worse at controlling their Ki like future Gohan or future Trunks that had to learn it all by themselves (so we shouldn't take Goku's Namek SSJ strength as the lowest a SSJ can be. He was just the weakest we were shown in our current tl, but as you've pointed out, kid future Trunks was much weaker than him).

 

[ahill1]

The same thing about "limits" could be said for the SSJ in the Androids saga, where there was a constant conversation about "surpassing the SSJ" as the only way to defeat the androids and Cell. It didn't prevent Vegeta and Trunks from getting way stronger in their SSJ forms, even when not mastered.

 

[freezamite]

The same thing about "limits" could be said for the SSJ in the Androids saga, where there was a constant conversation about "surpassing the SSJ" as the only way to defeat the androids and Cell. It didn't prevent Vegeta and Trunks from getting way stronger in their SSJ forms, even when not mastered.

You could say that they surpassed the SSJ because they attained superior transformations. In fact, I think the forms Vegeta and Trunks achieve are the SSJ2 of someone that hasn't mastered the SSJ (if you look at how their hair turns more spiked, they resemble the SSJ2 a lot in that sense).
But even if they were speaking of surpassing the SSJ, there never was a stated limit as to how strong could a SSJ be unlike it happened with the base state.

 

[ahill1]

The same thing about "limits" could be said for the SSJ in the Androids saga, where there was a constant conversation about "surpassing the SSJ" as the only way to defeat the androids and Cell. It didn't prevent Vegeta and Trunks from getting way stronger in their SSJ forms, even when not mastered.

You could say that they surpassed the SSJ because they attained superior transformations. In fact, I think the forms Vegeta and Trunks achieve are the SSJ2 of someone that hasn't mastered the SSJ (if you look at how their hair turns more spiked, they resemble the SSJ2 a lot in that sense).
But even if they were speaking of surpassing the SSJ, there never was a stated limit as to how strong could a SSJ be unlike it happened with the base state.

If I understanded well what you said, the base form reached a limit due to what Vegeta said ("I run into a wall... my own limits") and that they had to turn into SSJs in order to get stronger, since they could no longer evolve in base. After their defeats to #17 and #18, there was all the talking of how they should overcome the SSJ in order to defeat those foes. And what happened? They did get stronger in their SSJ forms. #16 stated Vegeta powered up as soon as he saw him:


Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P2.3-4
No.16: “Wait…We’ll move once they’ve started fighting. It’s odd, though…Vegeta’s fighting power has gone up quite a lot since before…”

The SSJs are dependant of their base forms and vice-versa. Kaioshin stated that now that Gohan base power is so exceptional, he'd be even stronger once he turns into a SSJ:

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

There's a correlation between the forms.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

I disagree that the base state reached its limit in the Android Arc, and I think Goku's base did get stronger in the ROSAT. I'm just saying that it sounds like Goku's making the SSJ form more efficient. If it takes less energy to get to the normal SSJ multiplier, he can use the excess energy to increase the multiplier.

 

[ekrolo2]

You can go both ways with it really. You can keep it the same as before or interpret Goku's statement as him & Gohan being able to power it up to a higher strength level thanks to having more available energy. Personally, I keep it the same since the point of SS2 was Gohan powering up "the right way".

 

[freezamite]

If I understanded well what you said, the base form reached a limit due to what Vegeta said ("I run into a wall... my own limits") and that they had to turn into SSJs in order to get stronger, since they could no longer evolve in base. After their defeats to #17 and #18, there was all the talking of how they should overcome the SSJ in order to defeat those foes. And what happened? They did get stronger in their SSJ forms. #16 stated Vegeta powered up as soon as he saw him:


Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P2.3-4
No.16: “Wait…We’ll move once they’ve started fighting. It’s odd, though…Vegeta’s fighting power has gone up quite a lot since before…”

Yes, the SSJ strength had a correlation with the strength of the base state, but that doesn't mean that the SSJ can only increase through increasing the base state.

There were instances where the base state could improve the SSJ:
1. Warriors born as SSJ like Goten and Trunks. Since they didn't need to trigger the transformation in the usual way because were born with the ability to do it, they surely could still improve his base state and with that improve the SSJ as well.
2. Warriors that had the SSJ unlocked but stopped to train and became weaker (like Gohan in the Bu saga). They still can transform into SSJ and since they have become weaker they can regain that strength training again, affecting both the base state and the SSJ form.
3. Kids. They are weaker because of their age, so even if they reached the peak of his base state for the age they had, once they grow both their base state and their SSJ forms grow stronger as well.

But regarding Vegeta, he wasn't one of these cases. We know that the effectivity of the SSJ transformation depends on the stress it causes to the body (the less stress, the stronger the transformation). And we know that to fully master the transformation, Goku (who was already pretty good at controlling the Ki) had to spend months in as a SSJ without ever regressing to the base state (not even to sleep).
Vegeta didn't do what Goku did, but he still spent a year training in his SSJ form and it's only logical that he also grew accustomed to the transformation making it more efficient as well, even if not reaching FPSSJ levels of efficiency (Vegeta was by far the worst when it came to ki manipulation, so he also had the biggest margin of improvement. I mean, in terms of mastering the ki of a SSJ, I doubt that Vegeta was much better than Goku when he first transformed into a SSJ. It just happened that he was much stronger in his base state and with a worse SSJ he still was comparatively stronger).

But for the normal saiyan that had never been a SSJ, reaching the limit of the base state was one of the requisites to trigger the transformation (the other one being the rage attack), and that limit not only existed but was the very reason Vegeta could turn into a SSJ.

The SSJs are dependant of their base forms and vice-versa. Kaioshin stated that now that Gohan base power is so exceptional, he'd be even stronger once he turns into a SSJ:

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

There's a correlation between the forms.

True for Gohan (he is in fact one of the examples I put), but that's because he weakened after being able to turn into a SSJ. Since he got weaker, he could of course get stronger again through regular training both improving his base state and his SSJ forms.
But you can't apply that to Vegeta or Goku without contradicting the manga, because the limits of the base state are the reason the SSJ exist.

I disagree that the base state reached its limit in the Android Arc, and I think Goku's base did get stronger in the ROSAT. I'm just saying that it sounds like Goku's making the SSJ form more efficient. If it takes less energy to get to the normal SSJ multiplier, he can use the excess energy to increase the multiplier.

I don't think there's a single evidence of Goku getting stronger in his base state post Namek saga. And the same for Vegeta. The only one that mentions that is Gohan, but he weakened due to not having trained in 7 years so it's only logical that he could improve again.
Regarding the SSJ, look at Nappa. It's not that "it takes X units of energy to make the SSJ multply your power by Y", it's simply that when you're stressed your Ki is not properly deployed.
Nappa was as strong as Goku or even more, but he got stressed and that automatically meant being much weaker and slower. The same happens to a SSJ, their Ki is disturbed and even if they have a potential of 10, they can only deploy 3 because of that (those numbers are just an example). It's like what happened to Nappa, only that this time the stress is something that goes with the transformation (to the point where even after mastering it, you still can't have the same degree of Ki control than you have in your base state. That's the beauty of the ultimate state, being able to access all the power of the SSJ forms in your base state so it can be deployed to the absolute maximum).

 

[SIAD]

What happens to Yakon (Majin) = Goku Base (Boo) >> Vegeta Base (Boo) >>>> Pui-Pui (Majin)> Kaioshin >>> Freezer?

  Kaioshin although seeing as Vegeta Base (Boo) had defeated Pui-Pui, still thought that the ideal was that the 4 faced against Yakon.

 

[freezamite]

What happens to Yakon (Majin) = Goku Base (Boo) >> Vegeta Base (Boo) >>>> Pui-Pui (Majin)> Kaioshin >>> Freezer?

  Kaioshin although seeing as Vegeta Base (Boo) had defeated Pui-Pui, still thought that the ideal was that the 4 faced against Yakon.

I never saw it like that.
In the Bu saga I have Vegeta Base > Yakon > Goku Base >>>>>>>>> Pui-Pui(Majin)
Now regarding Kaioshin, he is one of the biggest mistakes of the manga.
He was presented as someone really strong (Goku even doubted he could win against him only by shaking his hand) and in fact he was really strong in the tournament (he even blocked Gohan when he went SSJ2).
So I have no problems in saying that the Kaioshin that was feared by Goku and that could block a SSJ2 was above Freezer.

But Toriyama decided to give him a much more secondary role and transformed him. Kaioshin as a character got a reset.
Kaioshin saw Gohan as a SSJ2 and he also saw how Vegeta criticised him, and he still thought the z-warriors couldn't be a match for fucking Pui-Pui. Furthermore, Pui-Pui was so weak he thought a 10x gravity would make a difference. A 10x gravity! He was probably in the same ballpark as Vegeta when he first arrived on earth in terms of strength.

The Babidi subsaga is the worst written of the whole manga because of that. I mean, after Bu is resurrected Kaiohshin laments not having forced his resurrection before he got all his strength, because seeing how strong Goku and Vegeta are they would've been able to kill an incomplete Bu. He argues that he didn't know that the z-warriors were that strong. Well genius, you fucking saw Gohan go SSJ2, and even if he had weakened, you knew at least Vegeta was much stronger, and Bu didn't have even a small fraction of the energy he required to be properly resurrected.
Once he saw Gohan SSJ2 he only had to rush to Babidi's spaceship following those two, blow the spaceship as soon as they arrived there, wait for Bu to appear in a really weakened state, and destroy it with the help of the z-warriors.
Instead of that he lets those two bring Gohan's energy to babidi and he enters babidi's spaceship agreeing to play babidi's game. It's impossible for me to justify both his character or his actions.

Toriyama wasn't perfect and those chapters demonstrate it. I mean, if someone can find a way to logically explain why Goku could feel such a big power in KaioShin, or why Gohan forgot he could reach SSJ2 on Babidi's spaceship, or why KaioShin forgot everything he saw in the tournament I would be glad if he explained it to me. Because I can't find a reasonable explanation to those contradictions.

In fact, I think not only those two characters were reseted, but the whole Bu saga as a concept. The Bu saga had in its first chapters a tone similar to the Cell saga, and I think Toriyama realised that this time he didn't have a powerful, convoluted plot that could go well with that tone. So he put Kaioshin to a side in terms of plot relevance, resurrected Bu with whatever excuse he could think of, and changed the tone of the saga to turn it into something much more light and simply fun. And I personally think that he was ritght despite having to sacrifice the internal coherence of the series for a few chapters.

So to me there are 2 Kaioshins. The Kaioshin of the tournament that was above Freezer as he said and demonstrated blocking a SSJ2, and the KaioShin of the babidi spaceship that was the most retarded character of the whole series and a weakling afraid even of pui-pui.

 

[SIAD]

But I still do not see the point of Vegeta Base (Boo)> Goku Base (Boo).

  What happens to Goku and Vegeta Base (EoZ) with a power close to that of Kid Boo?

 

[ahill1]

True for Gohan (he is in fact one of the examples I put), but that's because he weakened after being able to turn into a SSJ.

He still didn't just regain his lost strength. Goku actually wondered if he'd be able to win against Majin Boo:


Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

It shows he also surpassed his strength at the Cell Games, since he didn't have SSJ3. Unless you use your theory that his base grew stronger along with his age, since he was still a kid at the Cell Games.

But you can't apply that to Vegeta or Goku without contradicting the manga, because the limits of the base state are the reason the SSJ exist.

The same could be said about "surpassing the SSJ" existing because they reached a limit at just SSJ. Right, I saw your explanation that they could now get stronger in SSJ due they turning it a less stressful and, in consequence, allowing them to use it in a more efficient fashion, but this thought only came up when they saw how natural Goku and Gohan were after the RoSaT. I also believe mastering the SSJ would allow a power up without it stressing/taxing the body, as said by Vegeta:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”


So as you can see, they discarded surpassing the SSJ because they analyzed that state as better and because that state still had room for improvement. There are a bunch of statements whereas limits is rather frequently misjudged:

Kuririn: “Th-that can’t be…! I don’t have that sort of power or nothin’…! I’ve trained pretty harshly…I think even now I’ve already about surpassed my limits…

Kuririn thought he had already surpassed his limits, even though he was just proved wrong as seen as Elder God unlocked his potential.

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”


Goku mistakenly thought he already surpassed his limits, only to be surprised as soon as he was recovered.


Kuririn: “I-I see…! Since coming here Vegeta’s acquired such strength that he seems to have even further surpassed his limits…B-but…F-Freeza is oddly calm…Why?...”


Kuririn thinking Vegeta has even further surpassed his limits, showing it's something that can be surpassed and Vegeta even did it on Namek.

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P9.1-2
Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that realm…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

Vegeta surpassed the limits of the Super Saiyajin, even though we know he also grew so strong in Super Saiyajin that he could go toe to toe with initial Semi Cell.


With this bunch of statements about limits being surpassed, how a character thought he had reached his limits and was proven wrong, I can easily say the same to Vegeta, specially when there are proof of the Saiyajins becoming way stronger in their base forms. Or that he just meant temporary limits.

 

[freezamite]

But I still do not see the point of Vegeta Base (Boo)> Goku Base (Boo).

  What happens to Goku and Vegeta Base (EoZ) with a power close to that of Kid Boo?

They weren't close to Boo. Ub was much stronger than Goku base (he nearly breaks Goku's arm with a single kick), and he didn't have even the slightest clue about how to properly use his ki.
In the same way Nappa or a SSJ only had a fraction of his real power if they didn't master the control of their Ki, the same applied to Ub.

He still didn't just regain his lost strength. Goku actually wondered if he'd be able to win against Majin Boo:


Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

No, that's not a good interpretation given the context of the sentence.
I assume that you're speaking of when Gohan breaks the z-sword. Then he says that he has become stronger while using the sword because it weighted a lot, then KaioShin agrees in that now Gohan should be the strongest of the universe, and Goku is just putting in doubt those words.

This is not as if Goku suddenly arrives at the Kaio world, he sees Gohan, felts amazed at his new strength in his base state and wonders if this base state can beat Bu.
This is Goku arriving at the Kaio world, seeing how both Gohan and KaioShin think that Gohan is now the strongest in the universe because he had mastered the Z-Sword, and doubting their words precisely because he doesn't see Gohan having powered up that much. Of course, that Goku didn't think even for a second that base Gohan could do anything against Bu, he had no reason at that point in the series to think that Gohan wouldn't fight as a SSJ.

The same could be said about "surpassing the SSJ" existing because they reached a limit at just SSJ.

But those limits are never described on the manga, it's something you think should be there, but I don't think you'll find a single quote saying that the SSJ has limits no one can ever surpass. In fact it's the opposite, with the SSJ the first thing they say is that they will surpass it, so it's not a comparable situation.
The base state limits were explicitly stated multiple times in the manga. In the SSJ description, in the explanation on how Vegeta achieved the SSJ, in the fact that we never see a single feat demonstrating that their base increased...

So as you can see, they discarded surpassing the SSJ because they analyzed that state as better and because that state still had room for improvement.

That's precisely what I'm saying. They mastered the SSJ form to bring it to its maximum potential. Nappa didn't transform either when he went from being Goku's toy to actually fight against him at nearly his same level. Its a matter of mastering the Ki one already has. Same transformation, better efficiency.

There are a bunch of statements whereas limits is rather frequently misjudged:

Kuririn: “Th-that can’t be…! I don’t have that sort of power or nothin’…! I’ve trained pretty harshly…I think even now I’ve already about surpassed my limits…

Kuririn thought he had already surpassed his limits, even though he was just proved wrong as seen as Elder God unlocked his potential.

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

Yes, I already commented on those cases, they're totally different. Here you have characters saying "wow, I thought I had reached my limits, but here I'm stronger than ever" which implies that they were totally mistaken and that they still didn't reach their limits.
But Vegeta isn't saying that, what he says is:
Vegeta: "I desired nothing but to be stronger. I endured a training from hell. Then I ran to a wall, my own limits. In the rage I felt towards myself, I awoke... into a SSJ!!!"

He is not saying he was mistaken about his limits, he is actually confirming that no matter how much he trained, he could never surpass those limits.
Vegeta isn't making a guess either like Krilin (Krilin thinks he can't get much stronger, that doesn't mean that's actually the case because up until that point he had constantly been getting stronger), this is Vegeta stating that he reached his limits.
Again, a completely different matter. Both Goku and Krilin admit that they were wrong, that they hadn't reached their limits despite thinking they had.
Vegeta is the opposite, he actually run into a wall, he tried to surpass that wall training like crazy, and despite all that effort he still couldn't get stronger. Then he enraged and he turned into a SSJ.

There's not a single reason to think Vegeta was mistaken about his limits, in fact, it's obvious that he didn't realise he had reached them until lots and lots of training without results.

Goku mistakenly thought he already surpassed his limits, only to be surprised as soon as he was recovered.

Yes, Goku mistakenly thought he had reached his limits. But he had a zenkay and a week later he was proved wrong which means that he hadn't still reached his limits.
Vegeta isn't saying that he surpassed his limits even when he is speaking of an event that happened in the past, VEGETA IS ACTUALLY CONFIRMING THAT THOSE WERE HIS LIMITS.
Come on, that's reading comprehension 101.

Kuririn thinking Vegeta has even further surpassed his limits, showing it's something that can be surpassed and Vegeta even did it on Namek.
.
.
.
Vegeta surpassed the limits of the Super Saiyajin, even though we know he also grew so strong in Super Saiyajin that he could go toe to toe with initial Semi Cell.

You're not reading it the right way.
How could Krilin know anything about the limits of a saiyan when he didn't even know about his own? He is only saying that Vegeta has become stronger surpassing his PREVIOUS limits. It's a way to say Vegeta has become stronger than he previously was.

And with Vegeta you're reaching a point where you're contradicting yourself only to try to prove your points. Because tell me, if even you admitted before that Goku was still in his SSJ form when he came out of the RoSAT, why are you now using Trunks statement as if that was a factual truth? Vegeta wasn't even close to reach the limits of a SSJ, Trunks just made an assumption that was proven wrong.

Vegeta wasn't making assumptions, Vegeta was never proven to be wrong, and the whole definition of what a SSJ is needs those limits of the base state to actually exist.

 

[SIAD]

@freezamite Why is it so difficult to accept that the Base Saiyajins far exceeded the low millions?

 Absolutely nothing implies that Kid Boo is >>>>> Oob (Infuriated), Oob turned out to be what Goku expected.

 If we go with logic like the one of Goku Base (Boo), not being able to raise 40 Tons, therefore must be like 100x stronger than an Adult Man. So it is not true. For example at the beginning of DBZ, we have Tenshinhan (A Multi-Town Destroyer), only 50x the Farmer. The minimum energy, to destroy an entire small city, is 5 Tons of TNT. Therefore, with its logic, the Farmer's strength, is equivalent to a number higher than a 20-kiloton TNT bomb.

 The Kamehameha Solar of SPC, should be 2,878,062,827x the Galick Ho of Vegeta (Saiyajin), because the minimum energy to destroy the Sun is of 164,913 Tenatones of TNT, while the minimum energy to destroy our Planet, is Of 57.6 Zettatones of TNT. Therefore, the power of SPC, should be around 25,000,000,000,000.

 

[ahill1]

I assume that you're speaking of when Gohan breaks the z-sword. Then he says that he has become stronger while using the sword because it weighted a lot, then KaioShin agrees in that now Gohan should be the strongest of the universe, and Goku is just putting in doubt those words.

Goku is putting in doubt whether Gohan can beat fat Boo or no. And there's no reason he'd put it in doubt if the answer was obvious.

This is not as if Goku suddenly arrives at the Kaio world, he sees Gohan, felts amazed at his new strength in his base state and wonders if this base state can beat Bu.

Goku arrives at the Kaioshin's realm and also tests the Z sword. Later he compliments on how good Gohan was wielding it. He wasn't completely clueless about Gohan's powers.

This is Goku arriving at the Kaio world, seeing how both Gohan and KaioShin think that Gohan is now the strongest in the universe because he had mastered the Z-Sword, and doubting their words precisely because he doesn't see Gohan having powered up that much.

Again, Goku wondered whether Gohan could or not defeat fat Boo, rather than flat out stating it. Kaioshin says that's the power and Goku wonders if this is enough to defeat Boo. There's no way he'd even wonder it if Gohan was too much below Majin Boo.

Of course, that Goku didn't think even for a second that base Gohan could do anything against Bu, he had no reason at that point in the series to think that Gohan wouldn't fight as a SSJ.

Of course not, he must be taking into account Gohan as a Super Saiyajin, the same way Kaioshin knew Gohan would become even more amazing as a SSJ.

But those limits are never described on the manga, it's something you think should be there, but I don't think you'll find a single quote saying that the SSJ has limits no one can ever surpass. In fact it's the opposite, with the SSJ the first thing they say is that they will surpass it, so it's not a comparable situation.

Like I said, right after losing to 17 and 18, the way the SSJs find out about the situation is overcoming the SSJ. Goku states it seems he wouldn't be able to beat those opponents without surpassing it:

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P1.1-2
Kame-sennin: “Aim even higher than Super Saiyan, you say? Is that possible…?!”
Goku: “I dunno…But it looks like I definitely won’t be able to beat these opponents without doing at least that…I’ll train for about 1 year, and if it’s no good, I’ll give up.”


Why'd they even think about surpassing the SSJ as a way out against these foes (who aren't multifold them) if they didn't think the SSJ was about its limits?

Like SSJ would be necessary to overcome the base limits, the introduction of the "above the SSJs" is also clearly in reference to them reaching a limit at Super Saiyajins. Which again, didn't prevent Vegeta from getting way stronger in just SSJ while not even mastering it. And the grade two was specifically the "surpassing the SSJ" stuff as Piccolo said "show me what is surpass the SSJ" when Vegeta was still in just SSJ and Trunks explictly said that form [grade ||] was surpassing the SSJ:

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P9.1-2
Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that realm…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

So even when they run into an apparent limit of the SSJ form (hence why there being all this talk to surpass it), they did get stronger in just SSJ alone, without even mastering it. There's no reason their base would be different.

Here you have characters saying "wow, I thought I had reached my limits, but here I'm stronger than ever" which implies that they were totally mistaken and that they still didn't reach their limits.
But Vegeta isn't saying that, what he says is:

That's not even the point. The point is that a character thinking he hit a limit and being mistaked happened more than one times in the past. And I'm well aware of Vegeta's line, I even cited it in my previous post. Like in those occasions, Vegeta was also mistaked, because his SSJ form did get stronger without even being mastered, where you could put up the excuse that the multiplier increased when they mastered it.

Not only this, but there are evidences that their base forms increased.

Imperfect Cell stated that future Trunks have improved, merely by being attacked by his base form:

Chapter: 420 (DBZ 226), P6.2
Context: after Trunks blows Cell out of the city
Cell: “…Looks like you really have improved…”

And with Vegeta you're reaching a point where you're contradicting yourself only to try to prove your points. Because tell me, if even you admitted before that Goku was still in his SSJ form when he came out of the RoSAT, why are you now using Trunks statement as if that was a factual truth? Vegeta wasn't even close to reach the limits of a SSJ, Trunks just made an assumption that was proven wrong.

The same way Vegeta also broke through his limits, when he previous thought he had reached it. Dragon Ball is all about breaking limits. Not only this, but base Goku also most likely got stronger than freaking Mr. Boo by the end of Z:

Goku says that someone besides Boo might win the tournament:

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”

Goku also states that if Oob stops being so tense he'd be able to put forth his true ability:

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P6.4-5
Context: as Goku and Oob are about to fight
Piccolo: “This will be the most notable fight this time around…”
Dende: “Huh?”
Goku (to Oob): “Don’t be so tense. You won’t be able to put forth your true ability.”

And Goku, who expected to fight someone who might be able to defeat Mr. Boo, met his expectations:

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”


While Oob had an advantage in the fight, it wasn't really as greas as you're trying to say, as Goku could still exchange punches with him for a while and withstand his kiai without major injuries. This wouldn't make a lick of sense if Goku's base power was the same he had against Freeza, which, according to you, was 300,000.

Not only this, but there are plenty of indications in the Boo saga of the base Saiyajins not being as weak as you think.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

Okay, before this thread dies, do you think Goten and Kid Trunks were mastered Super Saiyans or just regular Super Saiyans?

 

[freezamite]

@User avatar freezamite Why is it so difficult to accept that the Base Saiyajins far exceeded the low millions?

Absolutely nothing implies that Kid Boo is >>>>> Oob (Infuriated), Oob turned out to be what Goku expected.

Look, I can accept someone not sharing my opinion. What I can't take is someone outright lying.
Goku (to oob): So you don't even know how to fly... It's not your falut. You never had a teacher, and I guess it never occurred to you.
.
Goku: You were just like I expected. Incredible. But you don't know how to use your power. You've never fought like this, have you?

Yeah man, nothing implies Oob couldn't fight at Kid Boo's level. We all know Kid Boo wasn't able to fly or didn't know how to use his power

Why can't you accept that the base state has a limit when it was explicitly said at least twice? Are you worried Goku won't win against Superman if he has a limit in his base state or something? You have reached the point of outright lying here... stop it, seriously. Is it that terrible that the saiyans have a limit as stated in the manga? Is that endangering your life or your beloved ones maybe?

Goku is putting in doubt whether Gohan can beat fat Boo or no. And there's no reason he'd put it in doubt if the answer was obvious.

No, Goku is putting in doubt what both KaioShin and Gohan said about Gohan being the strongest being in the universe. Even with the english translation it's obvious that you're forcing that interpretation by taking it out of context. It's another example of what I said of adapting the manga to your view of it instead of adapting your view of the manga to what is actually written in there.

The problem with this is:
1. You obviously have to ignore what Vegeta said. So the manga automatically becomes worse than it was because in your opinion there should be a contradiction there.
2. Once you grab other translations of the same scene, your interpretation based on the descontextualization of that scene becomes 100% invalid. In my version of the manga -catalan translation- the scene goes like this:

KaiohShin: Of course! If you're feeling that strong, when you turn into a SSJ you'll have a great strength...! Yes, that's it! I'm sure that what they say about being the strongest is because of that!
Goku: But... I don't think he's stronger than Bu
Elder KaioShin: He, he... no, it doesn't work like that.

Now let's put the english version into context:
KaiohShin: Yes... if you gain so much strength, you'll be even greater once you turn Super Saiyan! That must be it! That's the power!!!
Goku: But I don't know... if he's better than boo...
Elder KaioShin: heh heh... you're wrong!

You can spin it as much as you want, but the fact is that even then that will only be your take on the scene and not the only valid interpretation. If something can be read in multiple ways then you can't simply say that your way of reading it is the only correct one if you at least don't support it somehow.

Remember that you're going against the manga. You're trying to demonstrate that Toriyama contradicted what he said about the SSJs and that Vegeta is wrong. You'll need much more than your personal (and forced) take in a decontextualized sentece in order to prove that.

Like I said, right after losing to 17 and 18, the way the SSJs find out about the situation is overcoming the SSJ.

And like I said, that's completely different than the base state. They are speaking of going further than their SSJ form allows them to go (although Goku in the end decides to stick with the SSJ transformation), which is the complete opposite than Vegeta saying he reached a limit he couldn't surpass through training.

The point is that a character thinking he hit a limit and being mistaked happened more than one times in the past.

What you ignore is that Vegeta NEVER said it surpassed those limits. He wasn't wrong about that because he is actually CONFIRMING that those were his limits in his base state.
Seriously, between the sentences you decontextualizes, the lies SIAD has blatalntly said about nothing indicating that Oob didn't know how to use his power and this I'm starting to think that there's an agenda here or something.

Okay, before this thread dies, do you think Goten and Kid Trunks were mastered Super Saiyans or just regular Super Saiyans?

They were natural SSJ, so their transformation was surely even more efficien than that of Goku or Vegeta could ever be. The proof is how even restraining their powers as kids they nearly killed Android 18 with that ki blast in the tournament (compare it with future Trunks, that learned how to transform as a kid but wasn't a natural SSJ, and how he was below Gohan base and of course much below than the androids from the future who were also weaker than the androids from the present). They were naturally born SSJ, and they had the transformation completely mastered without even trying.

 

[SIAD]

@User avatar freezamite Why is it so difficult to accept that the Base Saiyajins far exceeded the low millions?

Absolutely nothing implies that Kid Boo is >>>>> Oob (Infuriated), Oob turned out to be what Goku expected.

Look, I can accept someone not sharing my opinion. What I can't take is someone outright lying.
Goku (to oob): So you don't even know how to fly... It's not your falut. You never had a teacher, and I guess it never occurred to you.
.
Goku: You were just like I expected. Incredible. But you don't know how to use your power. You've never fought like this, have you?

Yeah man, nothing implies Oob couldn't fight at Kid Boo's level. We all know Kid Boo wasn't able to fly or didn't know how to use his power

Why can't you accept that the base state has a limit when it was explicitly said at least twice? Are you worried Goku won't win against Superman if he has a limit in his base state or something? You have reached the point of outright lying here... stop it, seriously. Is it that terrible that the saiyans have a limit as stated in the manga? Is that endangering your life or your beloved ones maybe?

Goku is putting in doubt whether Gohan can beat fat Boo or no. And there's no reason he'd put it in doubt if the answer was obvious.

No, Goku is putting in doubt what both KaioShin and Gohan said about Gohan being the strongest being in the universe. Even with the english translation it's obvious that you're forcing that interpretation by taking it out of context. It's another example of what I said of adapting the manga to your view of it instead of adapting your view of the manga to what is actually written in there.

The problem with this is:
1. You obviously have to ignore what Vegeta said. So the manga automatically becomes worse than it was because in your opinion there should be a contradiction there.
2. Once you grab other translations of the same scene, your interpretation based on the descontextualization of that scene becomes 100% invalid. In my version of the manga -catalan translation- the scene goes like this:

KaiohShin: Of course! If you're feeling that strong, when you turn into a SSJ you'll have a great strength...! Yes, that's it! I'm sure that what they say about being the strongest is because of that!
Goku: But... I don't think he's stronger than Bu
Elder KaioShin: He, he... no, it doesn't work like that.

Now let's put the english version into context:
KaiohShin: Yes... if you gain so much strength, you'll be even greater once you turn Super Saiyan! That must be it! That's the power!!!
Goku: But I don't know... if he's better than boo...
Elder KaioShin: heh heh... you're wrong!

You can spin it as much as you want, but the fact is that even then that will only be your take on the scene and not the only valid interpretation. If something can be read in multiple ways then you can't simply say that your way of reading it is the only correct one if you at least don't support it somehow.

Remember that you're going against the manga. You're trying to demonstrate that Toriyama contradicted what he said about the SSJs and that Vegeta is wrong. You'll need much more than your personal (and forced) take in a decontextualized sentece in order to prove that.

Like I said, right after losing to 17 and 18, the way the SSJs find out about the situation is overcoming the SSJ.

And like I said, that's completely different than the base state. They are speaking of going further than their SSJ form allows them to go (although Goku in the end decides to stick with the SSJ transformation), which is the complete opposite than Vegeta saying he reached a limit he couldn't surpass through training.

The point is that a character thinking he hit a limit and being mistaked happened more than one times in the past.

What you ignore is that Vegeta NEVER said it surpassed those limits. He wasn't wrong about that because he is actually CONFIRMING that those were his limits in his base state.
Seriously, between the sentences you decontextualizes, the lies SIAD has blatalntly said about nothing indicating that Oob didn't know how to use his power and this I'm starting to think that there's an agenda here or something.

Okay, before this thread dies, do you think Goten and Kid Trunks were mastered Super Saiyans or just regular Super Saiyans?

They were natural SSJ, so their transformation was surely even more efficien than that of Goku or Vegeta could ever be. The proof is how even restraining their powers as kids they nearly killed Android 18 with that ki blast in the tournament (compare it with future Trunks, that learned how to transform as a kid but wasn't a natural SSJ, and how he was below Gohan base and of course much below than the androids from the future who were also weaker than the androids from the present). They were naturally born SSJ, and they had the transformation completely mastered without even trying.

You know, one of the actions I most hate is lying. If you think Oob (Enraged) is = Kid Boo, I do not care, since we all have the right to think differently. I have absolutely no problem with Super Man >> Goku and Vegeta.

I am guided by what I believe and not by what I want to believe. I am not very fanatic of Arale, but I am willing to believe that Arale> Goku SSJB (Actual).

You know freezamite, in this forum there are big debaters and I think absolutely none of them believe that the power of the Saiyajins Base is so low. Of course, in this forum is a debating that lately has not been connected, I mean Captain Cadaver (He is one of the best debunkers I've seen on the internet in all these years), he would absolutely disagree with his theory Of the Saiyajins Base.

I fully respect the different opinions, because thanks to that, one will talk to the world, but call me a liar for something that many debaters say, I find it very ugly.

By the way, regarding the point of ahill1, on Fat Boo> = Gohan SSJ2 (Post Sword Z). What sense would freezamite have, if Gohan had not increased his base power, by training with Sword Z, considering that the step from being a weaker compared to Vegeta SSJ2 (Boo), to rival Fat Boo?

 

[freezamite]

You know, one of the actions I most hate is lying. If you think Oob (Enraged) is = Kid Boo, I do not care, since we all have the right to think differently. I have absolutely no problem with Super Man >> Goku and Vegeta.

You said that absolutely nothing could indicate that Oob was weaker than Kid Boo, and that's false. Maybe you didn't lie, maybe you just forgot it, but that's not true. Goku clearly says Oob is a nOob when it comes to controlling and using his ki.
If Nappa, who was an experienced fighter and knew how to use his power could only fight with a fraction of it because his emotions got a bit out of control, what makes you think that Oob was different? That's not a valid proof of Goku base being much stronger, because if Oob can only display a fraction of his real power, it still can make perfectly sense for a Goku base to tank that kick.

You know freezamite, in this forum there are big debaters and I think absolutely none of them believe that the power of the Saiyajins Base is so low.

A lot of people believing something doesn't make it true. I've already pointed hard evidences that demonstrate that those limits exist, both in form of explanations given in the series (Vegeta) and hard facts (the 40 ton feat of base Goku in the bu saga).

Of course, in this forum is a debating that lately has not been connected, I mean Captain Cadaver (He is one of the best debunkers I've seen on the internet in all these years), he would absolutely disagree with his theory Of the Saiyajins Base.

Maybe you can call him to come here if he's that good and I'm sure it wold be fun to debate with him.

I fully respect the different opinions, because thanks to that, one will talk to the world, but call me a liar for something that many debaters say, I find it very ugly.

No, I didn't call you a liar because of that. I called you a liar because you said "Absolutely nothing implies that Kid Boo is >>>>> Oob (Infuriated)" when I've already posted some quotes of Goku commenting on the fact that Oob can't use his power.
It's false that nothing implicated that Oob at the tournament could rival kid bu. In fact, it's heavily implicated by the fact that Oob didn't know how to use his power, even Goku tells him that.

By the way, regarding the point of ahill1, on Fat Boo> = Gohan SSJ2 (Post Sword Z). What sense would freezamite have, if Gohan had not increased his base power, by training with Sword Z, considering that the step from being a weaker compared to Vegeta SSJ2 (Boo), to rival Fat Boo?

I don't know if Gohan was above SSJ2 Vegeta. We know Gohan got weakened during the 7 years that lead to the Bu saga, so it's only logical that with training and thanks to having become an adult he could become stronger than he ever was.
What I'm saying is that Goku never thought Gohan could beat Bu. He simply saw the Kaioshin convinced Gohan could do it, and since he (Goku) couldn't perceive that superior strength in Gohan he doubted Kaioshins' words.