Does Super imply base fusion > god forms?

[GSM123]

Granted Goku blatantly said otherwise in the BoGs Saga, but if you think about it SSJ God wasn't shit for Beerus either. He wasn't even 1% of his power back then.

When it comes to everytime fusion was used in the series, base forms far outstripped the god forms. Base Vegetto ripped off half of Merged Zamasu's body, Base Kefla effortlessly blitzed SSJG Goku (Though Kale's own power might be to thank here) and Base Gogeta was clearly more powerful than Blue Goku or Vegeta in the Broly movie.

Based on the above, can we assume Vegetto could have defeated SSJG Goku in the BoGs Saga?

Basically it comes down to the old question: Does the "fusion multiplier" take into account a Saiyan's transformations as part of the power up, or is the boost simply higher than the boost SSJB and lower forms can give?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yes, Base fusions > SSG/SSB individuals as shown by the implications surrounding a fatigued Base Vegetto in the manga and Base Kefla in the anime.

Granted Goku blatantly said otherwise in the BoGs Saga

Post-God Goku/Vegeta are far stronger than their BoG selves. The other examples simply make this more apparent than it already was.

Based on the above, can we assume Vegetto could have defeated SSJG Goku in the BoGs Saga?

Not prior to Vegeta's rage boost or Goku's God ritual, though certainly after both of these.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Post-God Goku/Vegeta are far stronger than their BoG selves. The other examples simply make this more apparent than it already was.

In the anime? Probably, in the manga? Definitely not.

 

[Mystic]

Side note, has anyone surpassed Beerusu yet besides the other gods?

 

[Pyro]

Side note, has anyone surpassed Beerusu yet besides the other gods?

SSJB Gogeta and maybe LSSJ Broly, but the latter seems retconned with Moro now.

 

[Mystic]

Is Gogeta > Vegetto?

 

[Papasmurf]

Is Gogeta > Vegetto?

Not in equal forms, but Gogeta was created after Galu and Vegeta both asspulled a "Perfected SSJB" form. So PSSJB Gogeta > SSJB Vegetto.

 

[Mystic]

Given the potara retcon, you'd think they could just carry around some earrings for a more perfect union.

 

[Papasmurf]

They fap off Gogeta more nowadays cuz he's new.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

In the anime? Probably, in the manga? Definitely not.

Their manga selves are too due to the Vegetto example, something that'd be pretty impossible if they weren't much stronger than their BoG selves when Galu initially referred to SSG as "a world I didn't know existed" even in the Super manga.

 

[VampireWicked]

Yes otherwise SuperSaiyan God (RED) or (Blue) of either Vegeta or Goku would just be all that's needed.
Potara Fusion: X’s battle power x Y’s battle power Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume-p.63

So IF in SUPER Vegeta/Goku's Base PowerLevel is 250Million then multiply Vegeta's by Goku's it would be.
250,000,000 × 250,000,000 = 62,500,000,000,000,000

Vegetto in Base would have a PowerLevel of 62,500,000,000,000,000

Okay Lets assume the SuperSaiyan God Multiplier is 1000 & Blue is x50
Vegeta from Base to SuperSaiyan Blue 250,000,000 × 50 × 2 × 1000 × 50 = 1,250,000,000,000,000
Goku from Base to SuperSaiyan Blue 250,000,000 × 50 × 2 × 4 × 1000 × 50 = 5,000,000,000,000,000

But lets say both Vegeta & Goku had equal SuperSaiyanBlue PowerLevels of 5,000,000,000,000,000
So...
Base Vegetto PowerLevel of 62,500,000,000,000,000
SuperSaiyan Blue Vegeta PowerLevel Of 5,000,000,000,000,000
SuperSaiyan Blue Goku PowerLevel Of 5,000,000,000,000,000

62,500,000,000,000,000
5,000,000,000,000,000

So Base Vegetto beats out SuperSaiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta.
SuperSaiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta wouldn't even come close to Base Vegetto.

I think Fusion only multiplies Base then while fused Transformation applies the given Multiplier.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

In the anime? Probably, in the manga? Definitely not.

Their manga selves are too due to the Vegetto example, something that'd be pretty impossible if they weren't much stronger than their BoG selves when Galu initially referred to SSG as "a world I didn't know existed" even in the Super manga.

I would consider that to be Toyo's woefully incompetent writing then. Because besides that one fusion moment, Goku and Vegeta's bases/non god forms are consistently treated as no different from their Buu arc selves. Vegeta literally cannot lift over a 1,000 tons in SSJ, a feat which is more in line with the level of power the Buu arc showed. Goku never adsorbed SSJG into his base, in fact Toyo makes a point to show that SSJG is an entirely seperate form above SSJ3 which Goku can access.

Future Trunks outright had an edge in strength over Goku in the manga as well, but Goku overcame it with the use of SSJG. There's other examples too, but Goku's God Ki/regular Ki states are clearly seperate from each other.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I would consider that to be Toyo's woefully incompetent writing then. Because besides that one fusion moment, Goku and Vegeta's bases/non god forms are consistently treated as no different from their Buu arc selves.

I don't see Boo Arc Base Galu being able to react to Initial Hit when the latter was somewhat inferior to SSJ Goku, who in turn has to be closer in power and speed to ~10% SSB Vegeta than SSG is to SSB considering Hit's Time Skip wasn't hindered against Vegeta.

Vegeta literally cannot lift over a 1,000 tons in SSJ, a feat which is more in line with the level of power the Buu arc showed.

Toriyama has made it apparent that physical strength is far more limited than Ki and, prior to Super (unless counting GT), SSJ Goku handling 40 tons was the best lifting feat within the series.

Future Trunks outright had an edge in strength over Goku in the manga as well, but Goku overcame it with the use of SSJG.

That would only show how strong Trunks had become, if anything, which isn't a stretch when Black was keeping him around as a Zenkai resource and we've seen in Super how ridiculous the gains for hybrids can be.

There's other examples too, but Goku's God Ki/regular Ki states are clearly seperate from each other.

Separate, yes. Light years apart, however, is another story when considering things such as the Hit fight.

 

[GSM123]

Yes, Base fusions > SSG/SSB individuals as shown by the implications surrounding a fatigued Base Vegetto in the manga and Base Kefla in the anime.

Granted Goku blatantly said otherwise in the BoGs Saga

Post-God Goku/Vegeta are far stronger than their BoG selves. The other examples simply make this more apparent than it already was.

Based on the above, can we assume Vegetto could have defeated SSJG Goku in the BoGs Saga?

Not prior to Vegeta's rage boost or Goku's God ritual, though certainly after both of these.

But if Goku and Vegeta get stronger so do Vegetto and Gogeta, and the gaps would stay the same. Or do you think it’s some sort of exponential increase where small individual increases yield far stronger fusions? The SEG does seem to imply that by saying Vegetto is the product of Goku and Vegeta’s powers.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But if Goku and Vegeta get stronger so do Vegetto and Gogeta, and the gaps would stay the same. Or do you think it’s some sort of exponential increase where small individual increases yield far stronger fusions? The SEG does seem to imply that by saying Vegetto is the product of Goku and Vegeta’s powers.

Gaps between forms definitely aren't as great as in Z, considering things such as the whole Less than 10% SSB Vegeta deal, so it's safe to say the fusions remain relatively above their individual parts to a similar degree despite it not seeming as vast a gap as before. There's definitely not any multiplication going on, unless believing the gap between SSG/SSB and PSSB is indescribably large.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I don't see Boo Arc Base Galu being able to react to Initial Hit when the latter was somewhat inferior to SSJ Goku, who in turn has to be closer in power and speed to ~10% SSB Vegeta than SSG is to SSB considering Hit's Time Skip wasn't hindered against Vegeta.

There's two things worth considering with Hit, the first one is that Hit in the manga is completely different from Hit in the anime. Hit in the manga is a weakling, plain and simple - he's not even one tenth as strong as Golden Freeza. The second one to consider is iffy power scaling, the series has moments where character who're far weaker than their opponents are capable of keeping up until they transform.

Toriyama has made it apparent that physical strength is far more limited than Ki and, prior to Super (unless counting GT), SSJ Goku handling 40 tons was the best lifting feat within the series.

But 1,000 tons in SSJ? If we take the fifty times multipler seriously, then Goku and Vegeta should be able to bench press at least 2000 tons. It's a feat that's not inline with Goku and Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 tier in their base forms. It's clearly showing that in terms of strength, the Saiyans are no different in their base forms.

That would only show how strong Trunks had become, if anything, which isn't a stretch when Black was keeping him around as a Zenkai resource and we've seen in Super how ridiculous the gains for hybrids can be.

Except Trunks and Black are both incredibly weak in the manga. Black couldn't even stand against SSJ2 Vegeta, nor could he even use a SSJB form.

There's other examples too, but Goku's God Ki/regular Ki states are clearly seperate from each other.

Separate, yes. Light years apart, however, is another story when considering things such as the Hit fight.
[/quote]

By that logic - we could consider base Goku in the Namek Saga to be Kaio Ken x 20 tier considering he survived a hit from 50% Freeza without any Kaio Ken activated.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

There's two things worth considering with Hit, the first one is that Hit in the manga is completely different from Hit in the anime. Hit in the manga is a weakling, plain and simple - he's not even one tenth as strong as Golden Freeza. The second one to consider is iffy power scaling, the series has moments where character who're far weaker than their opponents are capable of keeping up until they transform.

Weaker than his anime self, yes. Weak in general though, not really. It wouldn't make sense for the weakened SSB Vegeta to be far below 10% when, if so, Whis would've used a benchmark that further shows how much he had weakened; and the same Vegeta has less of a lead on SSJ Goku than SSB Goku had on his SSG self when Hit was confident on his full power Time Skip being able to freeze the latter. When we know from official sources SS3 Goku (at least in Z) is 8x stronger than his SSJ self, it's clear things aren't adding up if Goku and Vegeta aren't far stronger than their BoG selves, who were already far above their Boo Arc selves based on Goku's image training.

But 1,000 tons in SSJ? If we take the fifty times multipler seriously, then Goku and Vegeta should be able to bench press at least 2000 tons. It's a feat that's not inline with Goku and Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 tier in their base forms. It's clearly showing that in terms of strength, the Saiyans are no different in their base forms.

SSJ multiplies Ki by 50, but that's not the same as linearly multiplying physical strength. It's also pretty telling that, despite Goku's Ki increasing by millions of times by the time of the Boo Arc, his physical strength didn't seem to have increased by dozens of times from in the 23rd TB where he flung a giant Piccolo who from his size alone probably didn't weigh much less than 10 tons at bare minimum.

Except Trunks and Black are both incredibly weak in the manga. Black couldn't even stand against SSJ2 Vegeta, nor could he even use a SSJB form.

That would prove the strength of SS2 Vegeta at that point rather than downgrade Black immensely. He's obviously not on the level of his anime self, but should be definitely far more than 10% of Vegeta's max at that point from examples already mentioned.

By that logic - we could consider base Goku in the Namek Saga to be Kaio Ken x 20 tier considering he survived a hit from 50% Freeza without any Kaio Ken activated.

The Goku VS Hit fight and comparisons to Vegeta's performance weren't ones of extreme durability, so not really a valid comparison to their reactions, power, etc. Also, Goku's durability is naturally far greater than his strength anyway as of adulthood as made apparent at the 23rd TB and the gravity training would've only made this even greater.