Explaining why Kaioshin is scared of Yakon and Pui-Pui

[kriss-]

Because of a little debate I had with @Evil Vegeta I decided to make a separate thread and go into further detail as to why Kaioshin is scared of Yakon.

None of the Majin's recruited from Babadi emanate Ki. Therefore, Kaioshin cannot be judging them from what he's sensing, neither can anybody else, such as Goku, Gohan and Vegeta. Evidence:

Chapter: 441 (DBZ 247), P4.4
Context: as Videl fights Spopovitch
Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…”
Note: ‘life’, in this case is seiki, written with the kanji for ‘life’ and ‘ki’.

In addition, Goku cannot sense Yakon:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P11.1
Context: after Goku manages to kick Yakon in the dark
Goku: “You’ve underestimated us too much. Even in pitch darkness, I can easily tell your movements. Through things like the subtle flow of the air…”

And Vegeta cannot sense Dabura:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, (not his Ki) it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”

However, the Kaioshins are able to sense the Ki of those within the lower world.

hapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”

This proves that the Kaioshins and the Z-Fighters cannot sense the presence of Dabura, Yakon or Pui-Pui. Kaioshin isn't judging them because of what he's sensing, he's judging them because:

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P5.2
Kaioshin: “You mustn’t underestimate you opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes then his allies!”

So even though he should be capable of getting the task complete himself, he's under the wrong belief that he's fighting against warriors superior to himself.

Closing statement:

Gohan believed that Super Saiyan was Goku's trump card and that he could easily dispose of Yakon. As we see here:

Kaioshin: “Let’s fight together!”
Gohan: “Nah, I think father will be perfectly fine on his own.”

However, during their second fight, Yakon begins to eat Goku's energy and it seems that Super Saiyan is no longer a factor and Gohan immediately intervenes, because he believes that they can win, even if they can't use Super Saiyan in the battle:

Context: after Yakon eats Goku’s Super Saiyan light
Gohan: “Father, I’ll fight too! If there’s two of us, then we’ll be able to win without becoming Super Saiyans!”

This infers that Yakon is considered stronger then Goku in his Base form, but he's close enough to be beaten by Gohan and Goku in only their Base forms, and due to the following two statements:

Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”

Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”
Significance: A mostly similar line originally appeared in BoG. The line here is basically the same, except it adds in 到底/toutei for extra emphasis, changing it from “you don’t look like you’d be able to beat him as you are now” to “you don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now” (the “but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right?” part wasn’t really there in BoG either). The big idea being that Goku in his “base” state is apparently still inferior to Freeza.

Leads me to the final chain:

Kaioshin > Yakon ~ Organic Freeza 100% > Goku Base > Gohan Base

 

[Six Trails]

I go with Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Goku >~ Yakon > Base Gohan >>> Freeza.

 

[ahill1]

I go with: Kaioshin > Piccolo > Yakon ~ #16 >= base Goku >>>> Freeza

 

[Future Warrior]

I would love to have Base Saiyans > Piccolo, but I can't make it work with numbers unfortunately.

 

[kriss-]

If you guys are just here to ignore the entire thread and post your personal chains, do it somewhere else please. This thread was created for a very specific purpose: to show that Kaioshin's fright of the Majin's isn't a reflection of strength.

 

[Future Warrior]

No one disagree's with you here, so what is there to debate about.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I feel what AT had in mind when writing Babidi Saga was Base Saiyans>Kaioshin>Freeza, but retconned it in the new material.

 

[ahill1]

I agree with you here, t0sh. Good explanation.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Kaioshin knows who Yakon is based on rep. It's how he knows Dabra and Freeza. Pui-Pui is the only one he assumed was strong because he was a Bobbidi recruit. Since he knows and fears Yakon like he does Dabra, it's not really an assumption to believe he knew his power before he became an underling.

 

[ahill1]

Kaioshin knows who Yakon is based on rep. It's how he knows Dabra and Freeza. Pui-Pui is the only one he assumed was strong because he was a Bobbidi recruit. Since he knows and fears Yakon like he does Dabra, it's not really an assumption to believe he knew his power before he became an underling.

But if he knew Yakon's power accurately he'd know SSJ2 teen Gohan could just one-shot him, no?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Same could be said about Dabra.

If Kaioshin can defeat Freeza in a single attack, and Yakon is no better, then he shouldn't fear him at all.

 

[SSJ2]

Kaioshin knows who Yakon is based on rep. It's how he knows Dabra and Freeza. Pui-Pui is the only one he assumed was strong because he was a Bobbidi recruit. Since he knows and fears Yakon like he does Dabra, it's not really an assumption to believe he knew his power before he became an underling.

But if he knew Yakon's power accurately he'd know SSJ2 teen Gohan could just one-shot him, no?

Retcon bruh. You can't try to counter with stuff that literally has no answer.

 

[ahill1]

Same could be said about Dabra.

If Kaioshin can defeat Freeza in a single attack, and Yakon is no better, then he shouldn't fear him at all.

But I don't think he could sense Yakon.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

They can't sense Dabra, either.

Or do you mean he couldn't sense Yakon before he became Bobbidi's minion? If so, why not?

 

[ahill1]

Retcon bruh. You can't try to counter with stuff that literally has no answer.

What was retconned? Kaioshin seeing SSJ2 Gohan?

 

[SSJ2]

SSJ2 Gohan as a whole. Kaioshin is shocked by Base Vegeta after seeing SSJ2 Gohan's power. Derp

 

[ahill1]

They can't sense Dabra, either.

Yeah, and?

Or do you mean he couldn't sense Yakon before he became Bobbidi's minion? If so, why not?

I mean that Babidi's warriors cannot be sensed or anyone that is under Babidi's control cannot.

SSJ2 Gohan as a whole. Kaioshin is shocked by Base Vegeta after seeing SSJ2 Gohan's power. Derp

While that's true, reactions are not always consistent (see Gotenks base vs Gotenks SSJ).

 

[SSJ2]

Reactions that are complimented with statements? Kaioshin was shocked by Vegeta's power and even stated it iirc.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

My point is you're assuming Kaioshin was way off about Yakon even though he knew that Dabra was really strong. That's picking and choosing. If he feared Dabra and Yakon based on their rep, then why assume he doesn't know how strong they were?

 

[ahill1]

Reactions that are complimented with statements? Kaioshin was shocked by Vegeta's power and even stated it iirc.

Yeah but later Kaioshin remembered SSJ2 Gohan being paralyzed by him in the Budokai:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”