Freeza > Base Saiyans

[Let's Go Fearless!]

How can you disprove Beerus's statement? And don't use Power Levels since Toriyama dropped that long time ago so forget it. After all, Base Saiyans are featless and Base Trunks couldn't handle 150x gravity as well.

 

[Classic Adamas]

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Funny, i was going to write about it this weekend.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If AT had Freeza > Base Saiyans in mind, he wouldn't imply in a sequel 20 years later. And DBS later contradicts itself by implying Goku > Gohan.

 

[freezamite]

How can you disprove Beerus's statement? And don't use Power Levels since Toriyama dropped that long time ago so forget it. After all, Base Saiyans are featless and Base Trunks couldn't handle 150x gravity as well.

Base saiyans aren't featless. In the Bu saga, we saw how Goku couldn't lift more than 40 tons in base, which is coherent with him having 300.000-400.000 units of strength.
The base state of the saiyans has a limit that can't be surpassed through training (only the old kai is able to break that limit through the ritual he does to Gohan, and then there's the SSJG ritual that also overrides the base state limits), that's stated in the Freezer saga and carried until the Bu saga.

So yes, Freezer was far above any base saiyan in the manga, it's not even a debate.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

If AT had Freeza > Base Saiyans in mind, he wouldn't imply in a sequel 20 years later. And DBS later contradicts itself by implying Goku > Gohan.

DBS didn't contradict anything. DBS follows DBZ Buu arc anime where Goku and Pure Boo are the strongest. Vegeta clearly said that Goku became no.1 after he defeated Boo.

 

[freezamite]

If AT had Freeza > Base Saiyans in mind, he wouldn't imply in a sequel 20 years later. And DBS later contradicts itself by implying Goku > Gohan.

It was heavily implied in the original manga. Besides everything related to a Saiyans natural progress disappearing after hitting that limit (no zenkays, no huge power ups through physical training alone) the limit being referred to multiple times, and not a single scene showing a base saiyan that had reached that limit appearing never again (Goku has 0 scenes showing him increasing his strength in base state after Namek, while until then we had multiple showings per saga at least), you had feats like the 40 tons base Goku that also showed that.

But of course, if you dismiss what you don't like (40 tons is too low for my hero Goku) and instead make assumptions that better fit your own narrative of "Goku tha strongast evah no limits balief mi", it won't be "implied" until it's directly stated like in BoG.
But the thing is that it was heavily implied in the original work as well.

 

[freezamite]

If AT had Freeza > Base Saiyans in mind, he wouldn't imply in a sequel 20 years later. And DBS later contradicts itself by implying Goku > Gohan.

It was heavily implied in the original manga. Besides everything related to a Saiyans natural progress disappearing after hitting that limit (no zenkays, no huge power ups through physical training alone) the limit being referred to multiple times, and not a single scene showing a base saiyan that had reached that limit appearing never again (Goku has 0 scenes showing him increasing his strength in base state after Namek, while until then we had multiple showings per saga at least), you had feats like the 40 tons base Goku that also showed that.

But of course, if you dismiss what you don't like (40 tons is too low for my hero Goku) and instead make assumptions that better fit your own narrative of "Goku tha strongast evah no limits balief mi", it won't be "implied" until it's directly stated like in BoG.
But the thing is that it was heavily implied in the original work as well.

Vegeta clearly said that Goku became no.1 after he defeated Boo.

Vegeta had a special rivalry with Goku, you're taking his claim too literally. I mean, there's no way Goku ever became more powerful than mystic Gohan, and in fact not even DBS contradicts this as Gohan depowered a lot because of his lack of training.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If AT had Freeza > Base Saiyans in mind, he wouldn't imply in a sequel 20 years later. And DBS later contradicts itself by implying Goku > Gohan.

It was heavily implied in the original manga. Besides everything related to a Saiyans natural progress disappearing after hitting that limit (no zenkays, no huge power ups through physical training alone) the limit being referred to multiple times, and not a single scene showing a base saiyan that had reached that limit appearing never again (Goku has 0 scenes showing him increasing his strength in base state after Namek, while until then we had multiple showings per saga at least), you had feats like the 40 tons base Goku that also showed that.

But of course, if you dismiss what you don't like (40 tons is too low for my hero Goku) and instead make assumptions that better fit your own narrative of "Goku tha strongast evah no limits balief mi", it won't be "implied" until it's directly stated like in BoG.
But the thing is that it was heavily implied in the original work as well.

No limits are implied. Dragon Ball is about breaking trought limits. How many times you remember someone saying "I've reached my limit" just to break the ceiling with a new power?

Goku lifting 40 tons doesn't make any sense. BoS Goku can lift a car, and cars are about 1 ton, but later 23rd Kuririn, who's is infintly stronger than BoS Goku, has trouble to lift Goku's 100kg weights. And after getting millions of times stronger Goku is only 40x stronger? Wtf?

Base Saiyans are featless because they aren't special for the plot. Like i said earlier, the series is focused in breaking limits. What's the point of showing progression of the character's regular forms? They want to show the characters unlocking new forms, getting stronger in alternative ways besides training and powering up the old forms. It wasn't until Buu Arc that the Base Saiyans returned to have some focus, and they are heavily implied to be Gods compared to Freeza:

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”
Note: Trunks says they can't win "Like this" and wants to become SSJ. Some can say he's talking about the base forms power, but he says even as SSJs they can't win on a H2H fight, implying the it was the costume that hold them back all the time.

Chapter: 437 (DBZ 243), P11.2-3
Context: talking to Goku
Kaioshin: “I’ve managed to pass the preliminaries too. It’d be nice if the match-ups allow me to have a match against you. Of course, I don’t have confidence that I could win, but I want to know just how strong you are.”

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If AT had Freeza > Base Saiyans in mind, he wouldn't imply in a sequel 20 years later. And DBS later contradicts itself by implying Goku > Gohan.

DBS didn't contradict anything. DBS follows DBZ Buu arc anime where Goku and Pure Boo are the strongest. Vegeta clearly said that Goku became no.1 after he defeated Boo.

Err.. You got it wrong

DBS contradicts itself implying SSJ3 Goku > Chou Gohan, and SSJ3 Gotenks by consequence. Unless Base Gotenks is weaker than Freeza (What is total bullshit) this is a contradiction.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Err.. You got it wrong

DBS contradicts itself implying SSJ3 Goku > Chou Gohan, and SSJ3 Gotenks by consequence. Unless Base Gotenks is weaker than Freeza (What is total bullshit) this is a contradiction.

DBS follows DBZ anime power scaling where Goku is stronger than Gohan not the manga version.

Gotenks is fusion and also featless himself.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

From a fine writing point of view, Freeza>Base sounds more appropriate. Since it can't be disproven, go with it if you wish.

 

[Jeff Styles]

Beerus is a liar and can't be trusted.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

But his statement wasn't contradict at all. Therefore his statement still stands.

 

[Jeff Styles]

His statement contradict Base Gohan > Piccolo > 18
Gohan was okay with the no SSJ rule in the 25th Budokai when he needed to wins to get the prize money, knew 18 and Piccolo are participating, and knew 18 really wanted to wins to get the prize money. That tell me even the weaker of the three Base Saiyans suprass Freeza.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

There are rules on tournament that can allow them to win. And Vegeta's statement can be easily debunk since he likes to overrate himself as always.

 

[Jeff Styles]

[quote ]There are rules on tournament that can allow them to win.[/quote]

You mean like ring out? I doubt Gohan can win via ring out if he was weaker. He would have to either overpower them or uses techniques to catch them off guard, like the Taiyoken, which he lack. Ring out seem like the safest way to win since you're DQ if you kill your opponent.

And Vegeta's statement can be easily debunk since he likes to overrate himself as always.

But Gohan isn't overrate himself. He isn't arrogant like Vegeta. If he's fine with the no SSJ rule, that's enough for me. If Vegeta is the only one fine with it, then like son like father, you can't trust them.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

There are rules on tournament that can allow them to win. And Vegeta's statement can be easily debunk since he likes to overrate himself as always.

Vegeta is always proved wrong when he's talking out of his ass. Remember against Freeza or 18? When Vegeta was contradicted about winning in base?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Yup, they're there to have some fun and earn money that's all. It was Vegeta who took the tournament seriously as he badly wants to fight Goku meanwhile the others were having a great time especially that Gohan participated in the tournament because Videl blackmailed him.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

There are rules on tournament that can allow them to win. And Vegeta's statement can be easily debunk since he likes to overrate himself as always.

Vegeta is always proved wrong when he's talking out of his ass. Remember against Freeza or 18? When Vegeta was contradicted about winning in base?

Well did he proved that he can win in base? Nope, besides do you think Vegeta wouldn't use SSjin at all? I doubt that.