GreatSaiyaman123 said:
No limits are implied. Dragon Ball is about breaking trought limits. How many times you remember someone saying "I've reached my limit" just to break the ceiling with a new power?
Even if Dragon Ball is about breaking limits, the base state limit is the only one that:
1. The limit is used to describe a new form. In other words, the limit has plot implications.
2. That limit is confirmed to exist even after it has been surpased with the SSJ.
Until that point in the series, most of the times a limit was spoken, it was in the sense of "I thought I had reached my limits, but I've surpassed them".
The base state limits are different. When Vegeta talks about them he doesn't say "I thought I had reached my limits", but "Even though I endured a brutal training, I realised I had reached my limits". That alone should tell you that those are not your conventional surpassable limits.
GreatSaiyaman123 said:
Goku lifting 40 tons doesn't make any sense. BoS Goku can lift a car, and cars are about 1 ton, but later 23rd Kuririn, who's is infintly stronger than BoS Goku, has trouble to lift Goku's 100kg weights. And after getting millions of times stronger Goku is only 40x stronger? Wtf?
You're making a very common error here, which is mixing real life physics with manga fiction physics. If you use real world calculations, kid Goku moving that huge rock is much, much more impressive than Goku being able to move in a 10G gravity (or even a 100G gravity).
You can only use in-universe feats to determine if other in-universe feats make sense. The 40 tons feat, for example, has it's own calculation in the saiyan saga. When Goku asks for a 100G gravity training machine, Brief warns Goku that somebody weighting 60kg would weight 6 tons with 100G, and the power-up of Goku after having trained at 100G was very consistent with his power-up after his 10G training with Kaito ended.
This is the only reason I use the 40 tons feat to approximate Goku's power at between 300.000 - 400.000 unit. If Toriyama hadn't used the tons calculation in the saiyan saga or hadn't been consistent with it in later trainings that feat would've been meaningless, and I'm 100% sure that Goku had lifted objects that in real life would've weighted far more than 40 tons.
But its a fiction and as any other fiction it uses it's internal logic (the logic the author applies, basically). Another "anti real life physics" feat in DB is how a planet becomes easier to destroy the further you're from it. This is something that makes no sense in real life, but it works like this in DB. Piccolo would've never been able to destroy the moon with the strength he had at that moment if he had been in the moon, but from the earth he had no problem in doing it. Does that mean that Piccolo was a moon buster? No, he wasn't, because in DB being a planet buster from far required much less power than doing it while being there.
GreatSaiyaman123 said:
Base Saiyans are featless because they aren't special for the plot. Like i said earlier, the series is focused in breaking limits. What's the point of showing progression of the character's regular forms? They want to show the characters unlocking new forms, getting stronger in alternative ways besides training and powering up the old forms.
But we did have feats for base Gohan, Goten or Trunks in the Bu saga when it made sense for them to be able to power up. And showing progression on the regular forms helps to hype how strong those characters would be in their SSJ forms, I mean, even if Goku had more and more advanced levels of KK, his base state strength still increased notably and we had feats to see it.
GreatSaiyaman123 said:
It wasn't until Buu Arc that the Base Saiyans returned to have some focus, and they are heavily implied to be Gods compared to Freeza:
Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”
Note: Trunks says they can't win "Like this" and wants to become SSJ. Some can say he's talking about the base forms power, but he says even as SSJs they can't win on a H2H fight, implying the it was the costume that hold them back all the time.
Chapter: 437 (DBZ 243), P11.2-3
Context: talking to Goku
Kaioshin: “I’ve managed to pass the preliminaries too. It’d be nice if the match-ups allow me to have a match against you. Of course, I don’t have confidence that I could win, but I want to know just how strong you are.”
Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”
[/quote]
I don't see why those quotes contradict what was said about the base state limit, except for KaiohShin who was retconned as a character and may cause confusion.
I mean, if we go by Kaioshin quote and we don't take into account how he was retconned we could even put Vegeta base above SSJ2 Gohan, and we know this wasn't the case.
