Freeza > Base Saiyans

[Let's Go Fearless!]

How can you disprove Beerus's statement? And don't use Power Levels since Toriyama dropped that long time ago so forget it. After all, Base Saiyans are featless and Base Trunks couldn't handle 150x gravity as well.

Multipliers are not real

Oh my god!!! You're just telling me now??? dawg My life is ruined!!!

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The title of this thread makes me laugh.

Fact makes you laugh?

Sure, because a quote on a movie that wasn't even supposed to happen in a movie full of holes on powerscaling is a undeniable fact

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

The title of this thread makes me laugh.

Fact makes you laugh?

Sure, because a quote on a movie that wasn't even supposed to happen in a movie full of holes on powerscaling is a undeniable fact

You mean Power Levels? Sorry, they don't work post Freeza arc especially that Base Saiyans doesn't have any feats to show they're truly capable of.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Powerscaling =/= power levels.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

The same power scaling where Base Gotenks is >>>>>>>>>> SSjin3 Goku?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yep, this one!

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

That came from PL/BP Purists therefore its a trash.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It actually came from manga statements. Shouldn't PL purists be like, the bests guys in judging powerscaling? Like, it's on the damn name!

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

There are some PL/BP Purists that doesn't put the humans from Android arc around 100 millions or below since according to Gero, humans + Piccolo > Vegeta? Now that's debatable.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gero though 19 could beat 20 and even noticed Piccolo's power up after he removed his weights. The guy wasn't right even once.

 

[freezamite]

100G Goku says he's on his limits, yet he has a Zenkai that blows this power out of the water. He says he's on his limits as a SSJ on Rosat, yet Buu Arc Goku is stronger than Kid Gohan, who is a giant compared to CG Goku. Vegeta says his on his limit when he shows SSJ, yet he implies he can solo the Budokai. Limits statements are a grain of salt on Dragon Ball.

The difference here is that 100G Goku or Rosat Goku are speculating, they simply THINK they're on their limits but at that point they hadn't even tried to surpass them.

When Vegeta speaks about his base state limits, he is not speculating. He says he endured a hellish training with no results, which made him realise he had reached his limits.

Furthermore, none of the limits you talk about had any impact on the story. The base state limit explanation came at the very same moment the zenkays disappeared, only to appear again on Cell, the only character that at that point wasn't at his limits.

I did use in universe feats. Nothing implies car on Dragon Ball are lighter than real life cars. And 23rd Kuririn struggled to hold some weights way lighter than a car. Brute strength feats are non linear, unless a regular human can destroy 1/140 of the moon. And Goku 300-400k? Wtf? He fought evenly with a Freeza who made Vegeta cry like a little girl.

No, but you're assuming Toriyama knew a car weighted more than a ton, or even that when he wrote the weight calculations he was taking into account the car feats from before.
It may be as simple as him thinking "6 (100G) tons seems a lot" and from there onwards him simply scaling linearly with whatever ballpark of power level he wanted to give Goku at the moment.

Regarding Goku's power, yes, he fought evenly with a Freezer who made Vegeta cry like a little girl... with the help of the Kaioh Ken x10.

Because on all those scenarios they are implied to be Gods compared to Freeza. Base Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan is never implied, that was a plothole. He was scared of Dabura as well, and by what we know Gohan is stronger than Dabura as a SSJ2.

I don't see where in tos sentences it's implied that base saiyans are Gods compared to Freezer, would you care to explain it to me please?

 

[SuperDragoon]

100G Goku says he's on his limits, yet he has a Zenkai that blows this power out of the water. He says he's on his limits as a SSJ on Rosat, yet Buu Arc Goku is stronger than Kid Gohan, who is a giant compared to CG Goku. Vegeta says his on his limit when he shows SSJ, yet he implies he can solo the Budokai. Limits statements are a grain of salt on Dragon Ball.

The difference here is that 100G Goku or Rosat Goku are speculating, they simply THINK they're on their limits but at that point they hadn't even tried to surpass them.

When Vegeta speaks about his base state limits, he is not speculating. He says he endured a hellish training with no results, which made him realise he had reached his limits.

Furthermore, none of the limits you talk about had any impact on the story. The base state limit explanation came at the very same moment the zenkays disappeared, only to appear again on Cell, the only character that at that point wasn't at his limits.

I did use in universe feats. Nothing implies car on Dragon Ball are lighter than real life cars. And 23rd Kuririn struggled to hold some weights way lighter than a car. Brute strength feats are non linear, unless a regular human can destroy 1/140 of the moon. And Goku 300-400k? Wtf? He fought evenly with a Freeza who made Vegeta cry like a little girl.

No, but you're assuming Toriyama knew a car weighted more than a ton, or even that when he wrote the weight calculations he was taking into account the car feats from before.
It may be as simple as him thinking "6 (100G) tons seems a lot" and from there onwards him simply scaling linearly with whatever ballpark of power level he wanted to give Goku at the moment.

Regarding Goku's power, yes, he fought evenly with a Freezer who made Vegeta cry like a little girl... with the help of the Kaioh Ken x10.

Because on all those scenarios they are implied to be Gods compared to Freeza. Base Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan is never implied, that was a plothole. He was scared of Dabura as well, and by what we know Gohan is stronger than Dabura as a SSJ2.

I don't see where in tos sentences it's implied that base saiyans are Gods compared to Freezer, would you care to explain it to me please?

I'm not sure why you're still trying to push the "Goku used invisble Kaioken x10" theory that got debunked over a decade ago when you yourself has been debunked on that multiple times before. Like seriously I don't believe you read the manga if you still think that not only did Base Goku not increase much from the Freeza to Buu arc but also believe that he was below first form Freeza, and Freeza arc Vegeta for that matter, in the BUU SAGA. No one who read the manga I can't see coming to that conclusion.
As for the base saiyan's strength, apparently you're just going to ignore the base saiyans not being regarded as trash by Dabura while Piccolo, above second form Freeza, was. Or how Base Trunks, hampered by a suit and Goten, fought on par with 18 (who for some reason you think is below Freeza) despite the fact that if she was supressed she could easily power up and knock Trunks out of the ring. but sure, base saiyans (besides vegeta) are below first form Freeza, why not.

 

[freezamite]

100G Goku says he's on his limits, yet he has a Zenkai that blows this power out of the water. He says he's on his limits as a SSJ on Rosat, yet Buu Arc Goku is stronger than Kid Gohan, who is a giant compared to CG Goku. Vegeta says his on his limit when he shows SSJ, yet he implies he can solo the Budokai. Limits statements are a grain of salt on Dragon Ball.

The difference here is that 100G Goku or Rosat Goku are speculating, they simply THINK they're on their limits but at that point they hadn't even tried to surpass them.

When Vegeta speaks about his base state limits, he is not speculating. He says he endured a hellish training with no results, which made him realise he had reached his limits.

Furthermore, none of the limits you talk about had any impact on the story. The base state limit explanation came at the very same moment the zenkays disappeared, only to appear again on Cell, the only character that at that point wasn't at his limits.

I did use in universe feats. Nothing implies car on Dragon Ball are lighter than real life cars. And 23rd Kuririn struggled to hold some weights way lighter than a car. Brute strength feats are non linear, unless a regular human can destroy 1/140 of the moon. And Goku 300-400k? Wtf? He fought evenly with a Freeza who made Vegeta cry like a little girl.

No, but you're assuming Toriyama knew a car weighted more than a ton, or even that when he wrote the weight calculations he was taking into account the car feats from before.
It may be as simple as him thinking "6 (100G) tons seems a lot" and from there onwards him simply scaling linearly with whatever ballpark of power level he wanted to give Goku at the moment.

Regarding Goku's power, yes, he fought evenly with a Freezer who made Vegeta cry like a little girl... with the help of the Kaioh Ken x10.

Because on all those scenarios they are implied to be Gods compared to Freeza. Base Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan is never implied, that was a plothole. He was scared of Dabura as well, and by what we know Gohan is stronger than Dabura as a SSJ2.

I don't see where in tos sentences it's implied that base saiyans are Gods compared to Freezer, would you care to explain it to me please?

I'm not sure why you're still trying to push the "Goku used invisble Kaioken x10" theory that got debunked over a decade ago when you yourself has been debunked on that multiple times before. Like seriously I don't believe you read the manga if you still think that not only did Base Goku not increase much from the Freeza to Buu arc but also believe that he was below first form Freeza, and Freeza arc Vegeta for that matter, in the BUU SAGA. No one who read the manga I can't see coming to that conclusion.
As for the base saiyan's strength, apparently you're just going to ignore the base saiyans not being regarded as trash by Dabura while Piccolo, above second form Freeza, was. Or how Base Trunks, hampered by a suit and Goten, fought on par with 18 (who for some reason you think is below Freeza) despite the fact that if she was supressed she could easily power up and knock Trunks out of the ring. but sure, base saiyans (besides vegeta) are below first form Freeza, why not.

1. The invisible KKx10 was there, and it's impossible to debunk something as obvious as Kaito saying Goku is using the KKx10 IN THE VERY SAME PAGE Goku appears without any aura. The invisible KKx10 it's a reality, and the only think that may be debatable (in fact it isn't) is if Goku was using the KKx10 the whole fight or if he activated it in the middle of it. It of course was used since the very beginning.

2. It's in fact because I've read the manga first that I know for sure Goku's base state hit the wall (stated in the manga) I speak about. In the anime there may be dozens of bull-shit feats for Goku base that break the "base state limit" claim, but not in the manga. Otherwise feel free to post a feat that proves Bu saga base Goku was above Namek saga base Goku. A single feat will be enough.

3. We don't even know what criteria Dabra used to disregard Piccolo as a useless fighter, and since they thought Pui-Pui (someone that considered a 10G gravity an insuperable factor) could harm the base z-fighters its obvious they weren't aware of the strength they were hiding.
It could perfectly be that since they were suppressing their powers, Dabra may have judged them based on the energy he felt at that moment and that both Piccolo and Krillin were the ones hiding more power.

4. Who said that none of the base saiyans surpassed Freezer's weakest form? Gohan also had a higher base state power than Goku and he clearly surpassed Freezer's weakest form even in the Namek saga, and Trunks was probably the same as well. But to use the fight against 18 while assuming that 18 was serious against them, when 18 didn't even know their identity and was just teasing "him", its assuming far too much. Remember that 18 thought she was fighting against a regular human being...