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Instead of going back and forth in another topic, I decided to put an end to this. If you don't feel that this is sufficient enough to convince you, than nothing will be.
Toriyama Interview wrote:
Q: I heard that this is the first time you've been deeply involved with the script of a movie; please tell us the reason.
A: The catalyst was that, first of all, when the script originally came to me, there was a lot of the sort of dialogue that only the creator would know, so I thought, 'that bothers me', and then this and that also started to get on my mind, and so rather than telling them to revise each individual thing, I thought it might be faster if I just wrote the script myself.
Battle of Gods (Film)
Beerus: I don't think you could defeat him (Freeza) how you are now.
Dragonball Super (Anime)
Minute: 6
Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”
Significance: A mostly similar line originally appeared in BoG. The line here is basically the same, except it adds in 到底/toutei for extra emphasis, changing it from “you don’t look like you’d be able to beat him as you are now” to “you don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now” (the “but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right?” part wasn’t really there in BoG either). The big idea being that Goku in his “base” state is apparently still inferior to Freeza.
Dragonball Super (Manga)
Regarding Base Saiyans and their comparison to Freeza in the Manga:
The common misconceptions:
• Vegeta being confident on winning the TB even if Piccolo is participating.
• Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
• Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
• Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
• Base Goten and Trunks [In Mighty Mask costume] putting up a good fight against Android 18.
• This line by Dabra
• Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
• Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
• Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them [Goku,Gohan,Vegeta] seem to have marvelous energy…”
• Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
The Counters:
Kaboom:
I just chalk up Vegeta's assertion to be in regards to his fellow Saiyans, given how Super Saiyan was the context. If the Super Saiyan forms are more-or-less consistent "multipliers," then if Vegeta thinks he's the strongest Super Saiyan then he'd be the strongest base Saiyan too.
Kaboom:
I'm not sure what Daizenshuu #7 was smoking when it claimed Trunks "fought evenly" with Android 18. I see the kids struggling to even defend against her while she acts completely nonchalant in the first half of the battle, while their suppressed attack as Super Saiyans completely blows her mind in the second half. I suppose maybe way weaker in base and way stronger in Super Saiyan somehow "averages out" to an all-around even battle? But either way, that's how I see it. They're easy pickings for her in base, but blow her out of the water as Super Saiyans.
I don't see them as stronger than Piccolo, either. Piccolo's surprised reaction to them powering up looks an awful lot like Vegeta's when Goku powered up to fight Nappa, and Goku certainly wasn't stronger than Vegeta then. Expressions of "shock and awe" are not necessarily indications of inferiority. Which isn't to say they're leagues behind him, though. They're probably pretty close behind him.
DarkPrince
Dabra's capacity to sense ki isn't very reliable, as he readily thought that Pui Pui would be able to easily take on Vegeta and the others, yet Vegeta was able to take him out without even trying. Additionally, he felt that Yakon would be extreme overkill when it came to the second floor, yet Goku showed he was able to at least keep up with him, and Gohan indicated that the two of them working together could beat him without either needing to transform.
As such, either he was only judging based on their overall suppressed power (and thus Piccolo could have simply been suppressing better than they were) or Dabra can't sense strength for anything, and in either case, it means his dialogue on the matter isn't reliable.
The Clean-Up
Occam's razor. : a scientific and philosophic rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities.
By virtue of Occams Razer and 3 official sources, Organic Freeza > Base Saiyans is a fact. it contradicts nothing.
Toriyama Interview wrote:
Q: I heard that this is the first time you've been deeply involved with the script of a movie; please tell us the reason.
A: The catalyst was that, first of all, when the script originally came to me, there was a lot of the sort of dialogue that only the creator would know, so I thought, 'that bothers me', and then this and that also started to get on my mind, and so rather than telling them to revise each individual thing, I thought it might be faster if I just wrote the script myself.
Battle of Gods (Film)
Beerus: I don't think you could defeat him (Freeza) how you are now.
Dragonball Super (Anime)
Minute: 6
Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”
Significance: A mostly similar line originally appeared in BoG. The line here is basically the same, except it adds in 到底/toutei for extra emphasis, changing it from “you don’t look like you’d be able to beat him as you are now” to “you don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now” (the “but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right?” part wasn’t really there in BoG either). The big idea being that Goku in his “base” state is apparently still inferior to Freeza.
Dragonball Super (Manga)
Regarding Base Saiyans and their comparison to Freeza in the Manga:
The common misconceptions:
• Vegeta being confident on winning the TB even if Piccolo is participating.
• Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
• Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
• Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
• Base Goten and Trunks [In Mighty Mask costume] putting up a good fight against Android 18.
• This line by Dabra
• Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
• Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
• Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them [Goku,Gohan,Vegeta] seem to have marvelous energy…”
• Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
The Counters:
Kaboom:
I just chalk up Vegeta's assertion to be in regards to his fellow Saiyans, given how Super Saiyan was the context. If the Super Saiyan forms are more-or-less consistent "multipliers," then if Vegeta thinks he's the strongest Super Saiyan then he'd be the strongest base Saiyan too.
Kaboom:
I'm not sure what Daizenshuu #7 was smoking when it claimed Trunks "fought evenly" with Android 18. I see the kids struggling to even defend against her while she acts completely nonchalant in the first half of the battle, while their suppressed attack as Super Saiyans completely blows her mind in the second half. I suppose maybe way weaker in base and way stronger in Super Saiyan somehow "averages out" to an all-around even battle? But either way, that's how I see it. They're easy pickings for her in base, but blow her out of the water as Super Saiyans.
I don't see them as stronger than Piccolo, either. Piccolo's surprised reaction to them powering up looks an awful lot like Vegeta's when Goku powered up to fight Nappa, and Goku certainly wasn't stronger than Vegeta then. Expressions of "shock and awe" are not necessarily indications of inferiority. Which isn't to say they're leagues behind him, though. They're probably pretty close behind him.
DarkPrince
Dabra's capacity to sense ki isn't very reliable, as he readily thought that Pui Pui would be able to easily take on Vegeta and the others, yet Vegeta was able to take him out without even trying. Additionally, he felt that Yakon would be extreme overkill when it came to the second floor, yet Goku showed he was able to at least keep up with him, and Gohan indicated that the two of them working together could beat him without either needing to transform.
As such, either he was only judging based on their overall suppressed power (and thus Piccolo could have simply been suppressing better than they were) or Dabra can't sense strength for anything, and in either case, it means his dialogue on the matter isn't reliable.
The Clean-Up
Occam's razor. : a scientific and philosophic rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities.
By virtue of Occams Razer and 3 official sources, Organic Freeza > Base Saiyans is a fact. it contradicts nothing.
