Freeza Saga PLs experiment

[withheldforprivacy]

In this list, i will try a variation of Ahill's theory; each Freeza's form is 3x the max of his previous
form (50% Freeza excluded).

Freeza 1st Form: 500.000

Vegeta: 500.000

Gohan
-normal: 400.000
-enraged: 1.000.000

Freeza 2nd Form
-initial: 1.000.000
-powered up: 1.200.000
-max: 1.500.000

Piccolo
-weighted: 1.250.000
-unweighted: 1.500.000

Freeza 3rd Form
-toying (prison bitching Piccolo): 2.000.000
-serious (dodging Gohan's kick): 3.000.000
-max (bouncing Gohan's blast): 4.500.000

Gohan (zenkai)
-normal: 1.120.000
-enraged: 2.800.000
-full power blast: 4.200.000

Vegeta (zenkai): 6.000.000
-planet buster: 12.000.000

Freeza 4th Form (pre 50%)
-fake ki (killing Dende and taking Goku lightly): 6.000.000
-initial (prison bitching Vegeta and fighting Initial Goku): 9.000.000
-max, aka no hands (bouncing Vegeta's blast and fighting Serious Goku): 13.500.000

Goku
-initial: 9.000.000
-max: 12.000.000

 

[p123]

I don't agree with the Final Form. Freeza should be a bit more powerful initially compared to Vegeta. Vegeta gets blindsided by the blast that kills Dende and is sweating and nervous going up against Freeza. He convinces himself he can do the job because he's a "Super Saiyan". He also seems to think it's impressive that he can see Freeza. Clearly not spoken by someone who is an equal.

Vegeta should be just on the outskirts of rivaling range. I feel his mood in somewhat similar to when Goku went up against Cell. He knows he doesn't have a chance, but he still is close enough to give it a shot. I think Vegeta is in a similar situation here. It is important because it alters the mood of the scene, also it dictates what happens next.

I'm not 100% but I think Freeza talks about how he increases his speed a little and now Vegeta can't keep up. I don't see why this is wrong. I think Freeza increasing his speed marginally is enough to make Vegeta unable to see him. Which is generally a large gap, but doesn't have to be monstrous.

So while I agree that Freeza's power prior to going 50% has 3 levels, I would define it as such...

Initial Power ( Killing Dende, Taking Goku Lightly ) 10
Powered Up ( Whooping Vegeta, Fighting Goku Round 1 ) 12
Full Power ( Deflecting Vegeta's blast, no hands against Goku ) 15

Something along these lines is much more reasonable imo.

Very good thread though withheld, even though I don't agree with the premise, it's always good to talk about Freeza's various powers that are often underlooked.

 

[p123]

Also, when you remove Toriyama's ridiculous suggestions about ki amplification from his power levels, the need to make everything multi folded becomes unnecessary.

Jeice's Crusher Ball was able to force Goku to dodge, whereas Vegeta's blast on Freeza forced Freeza to go all out to kick it back. I can advocate for Vegeta having a slightly superior blast amplification, but not many times greater imo. I think ki amplification is greatly exaggerated and overplayed.

 

[ahill]

Well, I disagree with this monstruous 3rd form Freeza. I don't see it as a 3x boost honestly, I think only Freeza's transformation to final form should be tremendous, maybe greater than his 1st transformation.

Also, p, Freeza speed up being 1.2x his pre speed up seems too low. Vegeta could still see Freeza's initial movements (albeit with difficult), while his eyes were spinning after Freeza upped his speed (and his power as well imo).

 

[p123]

Vegeta could not see Reecome, Vegeta couldn't see KKx3 Goku and so on. For Vegeta to go from 88% to 75% would be plausible.

 

[SSJ2]

Would a 1.2x increase to a speed already superior to Vegeta's not make a huge difference to the battle?

 

[p123]

Exactly my point.

 

[ahill]

The way Vegeta couldn't see Recoome and Kkx3 Goku was different, he was just speed blitzed in battle. The way Vegeta couldn't see Freeza was more like the Ginyus not seeing ~60k Goku, whereas they didn't even know where Goku was, just like how Vegeta was searching for Freeza.

Vegeta went from having still hope to being almost completely hopeless, so I don't see it just going from 88% to 75%, honestly.

Against Kkx3 Goku and Recoome, Vegeta still resumed the battle despite being heavily outmatched, while against Freeza he was like "WTF is this!?" and resorted to his trump card (a powerful blast), just like in the fight against Perfect Cell. Pretty different if you ask me.

 

[SSJ2]

Think about Vegeta having the speed to take Dodoria's back while barely even trying, and then add a further gap to that. It would be impossible for Dodoria to follow, no?

 

[ahill]

Vegeta wasn't exactly effortlessly holding Dodoria's back (see his veins popping out).

But meh that can still work, I just see Freeza's level of dominance against Vegeta in a bigger realm than Vegeta vs Recoome or Vegeta vs Kkx3 Goku, both being 75% gaps. I see it more on Cell (warming up) vs Vegeta SSJG3 realm, mainly by the way Vegeta acted in those fights. Like I said, he still engaged into a hand to hand combat against Recoome and Goku, while against Cell and Freeza, Vegeta treated it like a completely hopeless situation, not even trying a hand to hand combat and resorting to his most powerful blast.

 

[p123]

You forget that Reecome was literally toying with Vegeta majority of the time. He only would show his true capability when he speed blitzed and a few other times. Remember how fast that initial knee was? Without using maximum effort I might add.

Now I think you could be right, it could be a larger gap, it did seem more dominant. But he's just avoiding as well and can't see. That's tough to define. Either way it doesn't have to a 1.5x increase in power for Freeza.

 

[SSJ2]

Agreed, but he was still smiling and taunting Dodoria while attacking, so the gap was pretty large.

I don't mind your gap either, in fact I like to split the difference in what we have. I just have Vegeta further behind initial 4th Form Freeza to make more sense of it.

 

[p123]

I think a good place to start for Vegeta vs Freeza is Goku vs Cell. I'd also suggest that Vegeta vs 1st Form Freeza is in play here as well. Something around 90%, barely hanging onto the rivaling range by a thread.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, I'd say a touch of a bigger gap than Goku vs Cell. Goku wasn't talking himself up to make himself think he could fight Cell. Vegeta was pretty much delusional, and the best he showed was kicking Gohan the way out of the Death Beam.

 

[p123]

Agreed, if he didn't believe he was a Super Saiyan, he probably would have shit his pants. 86-88% then? I think it's the same gap he originally had against 1st Form Freeza more or less don't you think? Maybe a little less?

 

[SSJ2]

I'd say a bit less. Vegeta handled that situation better and even taunted Freeza to transform, albeit he had help, but he was stil relying on himself the most. I like your 90% for Vegeta vs 1st Form, and 86% for Vegeta vs Final Form.

 

[p123]

Sounds pretty good, yea, Vegeta really was shitting himself hard prior to convincing himself he was a legend. Haha. Can you really blame him? He needed to have some sort of hope.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, and he had no help in the latter. And you also can't blame him considering he went from like 500k to the millions instantly. He probably didn't even have time to fully grasp the situation.

 

[ahill]

I am fine with 90% here. That's basically handsome Zarbon vs 24k Vegeta and I can see handsome Zarbon having these type of reacrions and be sweating over Vegeta showing his prowess.

 

[ahill]

But we have to remember that Vegeta didn't even know exactly what a SSJ was. I think he assumed he was a SSJ due to being pretty strong, you no?

Besides, Freeza had to increase his speed against Vegeta, which shows me Vegeta was pretty competitive. I don't think Freeza could make a fool out of Vegeta in speed, do you?