Freeza vs Base Saiyans (Boo Saga)

[Uchiha]

Does anyone here believe in Freeza >?

 

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

I never believed in the Frieza > Base Saiyans thing. After 10+ Years of training and the insane power ups they made I found it hard to believe they'd yet to surpass Frieza. I have Gohan and Goku by the Cell Games being able to beat him rather easily whether he's Organic or Mecha. Vegeta and Trunks during the Cell Games I have being challenged by either form.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I don't see the possibility of Frieza being stronger than Base Saiyans.

 

[SSJ2]

Personally I think that it's a numerical impossibility based on my belief of Freeza < Kaioshin <<<< Base Saiyans.

 

[Pyro]

I honestly have no personal gripe with the idea at all. It's the fact that Toriyama has taken such a leisurely stance on his work that makes it difficult for me to accept. One chapter he's displaying two base Saiyans fighting an artificial human nearly toe to toe, and then three chapters later he's claiming Freeza is still a big deal without transformations. If he's not going to take the time to put a more serious baseline into his work for consistency (which he's personally tossed out with new material), I really shouldn't be bound by one way or the other.

 

[ahill1]

All Saiyans base in the Cell Games are stronger than Freeza IMO.

 

[Future Warrior]

Base Saiyans can 1 shot Freeza by the Cell Games

 

[Lightsworn]

Yes, I'd say the base saiyans lose to Freeza.

 

[p123]

It is a numerical impossibility.

The Base Saiyans had decent showings against Android 18 and Imperfect Cell, beings who dwarf Freeza.

The Beerus line is a joke, as he's fighting Mastered Super Saiyan Goku he still seems to be debating if Goku can defeat Freeza. It is not meant to be taken seriously imo.

 

[Lightsworn]

I don't care about numbers honestly and I could honestly make it work if I tried.

To me it's been objectively stated that base saiyans are weaker than Freeza and nothing in the manga directly contradicts it.

 

[Uchiha]

It's objectively stated that Vegeta in base is stronger than anyone he knows is in the tournament

 

[Lightsworn]

That was never stated. Vegeta just proclaimed to be stronger than the saiyans, specifically more than a Goku who he doesn't even know the strength of. 18 and Piccolo have no place in the context of his statement, nor is he even aware that they're entering

 

[Uchiha]

"The saiyans" that's your subjective interpretation. The statement needs to be plucked and rehashed into someone's viewpoint, the same as the statement in Super/BoG. Both of them can be reinterpreted from their literal value.

Vegeta says "this tournament will be a piece of cake". Someone can interject that he thinks only the Saiyans will be in the tournament (although a terrible interjection, imo, since it really doesn't have any basis. Why would a fighter like #18 come then?). Beerus says "You won't be able to beat Freeza in your current state". Someone can interject "Beerus can't sense Goku and he was clearly doing it to taunt Goku into powering up into what he wrongly assumed was SSJG". This is a better interjection that the former, imo anyway.

Regardless I'm open to both interpretations, the only problem being that I don't see BoG and forward as being canon because AT clearly lost his memory/is not giving serious attention to previous powers. He has Piccolo nerfed down to Zarbon levels and had Freeza training to gain a PL of 1.3 mil.

 

[Lightsworn]

Not really because he says that as long as no body transforms, he will have an advantage. The only people who can transform are saiyans. The context of his statement makes it clear who he cares about most and who he is proclaimimg superiorty to. Again, Vegeta doesn't even know 18 is participating, unless you can provide evidnece that does prior to stating he will win.

As far as Beerus goes, claiming he can't sense Goku seems like it's reaching. He would be making a claim that he has no clue what he is talking about. Goku doesn't disagree with his claim and Kaio says he is correct. No context or statement tell us he is trying to taunt Goku. So there is no reason to interpret it that way.

 

[Uchiha]

Still once again, the literal statement still says the tournament will be a piece of cake. When you say he doesn't know you're throwing your own subjective viewpoints into the mix. Why are you assuming it's my burden of proof that Vegeta doesn't know? Usually characters can be given the knowledge of the author, unless otherwise proven. Regardless, Gohan says he'll be notifying the others and Vegeta in chapter 427 about the tournament. Vegeta says his statement after this.

Actually there's some pretty good evidence Beerus can't sense (amounts) energy. He can sense ki and and fight, but he can only gauge the amount we're speaking of after a skirmish. I forgot what it was since I saw it posted like 2 years ago. If anyone remembers can they please post it. Beerus would make a claim that he has no clue what he's talking about to taunt Goku into going what he assumed was SSJG liked I said earlier. The context and support for Beerus taunting Goku would be what he saw Beerus show him on the screen. He assumed that was SSJG, and was trying to get Goku to transform into it. It's also supported by how Beerus physically is pointing at Goku's muscles and using visual evidence, rather than straight up sensing like every other fighter.

Not to mention Goku was clearly suppressing since he was hiding anyway. So even if you do believe that Beerus was actively sensing Goku's strength in base despite the plethora of evidence against it, there's proof that he's sensing the wrong energy anyway because Goku was trying to suppress his ki even in base.

 

[Lightsworn]

There's no reason to assume he does know she will be participating. We can't put thoughts into characters heads just to fit our preconcieved thoughts. Show some evidence that he is aware that 18 is participating.

There's no reason why Beerus can't be physically examining him and sensing him as well. You also didn't address how neither Goku nor Kaio disagreed with him, and Kaio even agreed with Beerus's claim. So even if I grant you your claim, we are told that he was correct anyway.

 

[Uchiha]

Show some evidence that he doesn't know she's participating. All of your arguments of him not knowing she's participating are basically burden of proof arguments that would fall into your lap just as much as mine. "We can't put thoughts into characters heads just to fit our preconcieved thoughts. " Same goes for you, putting the negation that he knows. A character having knowledge of his surrounding characters is default. A main character not having important knowledge of his surrounding cast it outside the norm, shifting the burden of proof for you to show evidence that he doesn't know she's participating.

And once again you just glossed over the fact that I referenced that in chapter 427 Gohan tells them that's he's going to tell "everyone else" to join too. I can't think of anything objective that would make Vegeta forget that #18 is part of the crew now. On top of that you'll need some compelling evidence that Vegeta has grown senile and forgetting about Piccolo.

Beerus physically examining him in itself is evidence that he isn't sensing him because it's never been done before. It's also evidence of the taunt I was referencing earlier.

So you argument has been brought down to "Goku or Kaio never corrected him". You see how it's hardly an objective statement now? Freeza's power is too irrelevant to Goku to correct Beerus about. He knows he can power up way beyond that level and does so. He doesn't need to say it when he can show. Regardless, Beerus is correct in his assessment. In Goku's current state there's no way he could've beaten Freeza. He was suppressed and hiding, to the point even Kaio was able to hurt him during the scene.

And if we're bringing power corrections into this, #18 doesn't correct Vegeta either when he says the tournament will be a piece of cake in his base state.

 

[Lightsworn]

Not quite. You claimed he objectively stated he was superior to everyone in base including 18 and Piccolo. Then I asked for a statement that he even knew 18 or Piccolo were participating, something you haven't been able to do. Not to mention that his statement of superiority only mentions the saiyans and no one else. You're trying to forcibly have 18 and Piccolo be apart of that statement. So please show me evidence they are apart of it when the context clearly shows otherwise. If you can't, then it's as simple as that. Performing a burden of proof fallacy is not going to get us anywhere.

Gohan never said he was going to tell everyone to participate, that's something you're adding. He was just going to tell everyone that Goku is coming back.

It's not just a matter of them not disagreeing, but Kaio AGREED with him. It's not hard to see which is more objective. One statement says "If no one transforms then I have an advantage" versus "The way you are now, you cannot defeat Freeza". Beerus's statement was never contradicted in the movie nor on the manga.

 

[Uchiha]

Not quite. You claimed he objectively stated he was superior to everyone in base including 18 and Piccolo. Then I asked for a statement that he even knew 18 or Piccolo were participating, something you haven't been able to do. Not to mention that his statement of superiority only mentions the saiyans and no one else. You're trying to forcibly have 18 and Piccolo be apart of that statement. So please show me evidence they are apart of it when the context clearly shows otherwise. If you can't, then it's as simple as that. Performing a burden of proof fallacy is not going to get us anywhere.

The problem is that you don't even understand how your own argument is being framed. Your entire argument is a burden of proof argument, but both sides hold an equal amount of weight making it moot point of we leave it there. Maybe reading this will help. The issue with that is that your side is a stance outside of the norm, forcing the burden proof onto your side. It's like saying Yamcha isn't an Earthling because there isn't any direct evidence for it. The norm is that characters are Earthlings and you are the one that needs to provide evidence, even if the possibility exists outside the norm that he isn't one. I used Yamcha because little to nothing is known about his background.

Actually Gohan is given some recommendations of who he should invite to the tournament before leaving. That, and he goes up inviting fighters rather than audience for the battle anyway, implies his statement was actually about inviting the fighters rather than just audience for meeting Goku.

It's not just a matter of them not disagreeing, but Kaio AGREED with him. It's not hard to see which is more objective. One statement says "If no one transforms then I have an advantage" versus "The way you are now, you cannot defeat Freeza". Beerus's statement was never contradicted in the movie nor on the manga.

I don't remember this in BoG, but perhaps you're specifically referencing Super. I saw the Super scene too, and I don't remember Kaio agreeing with him. He just didn't disagree, which is the same as what #18 did. Once again ignoring that Beerus is completely right and I agree with him anyway since Goku was suppressed enough to be hurt by Kaio a moment earlier. The statement I'm referring to is Vegeta in Viz saying the tournament will be a piece of cake regardless of whether he can transform or not.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

When Gohan says Tagoma's power is on par with his own at his best, is he talking about his Base power only? We know he can't be talking about his power in the Boo saga, since Super Saiyan Gohan easily took a more powerful Ginyu Tagoma down.

Also, doesn't Tagoma say Gohan was the strongest of the group before he transforms into a Super Saiyan?