Freeza

[FeatsofPower]

KHH at BoZ is ~2.22x. There's no getting around that.

I think the author is making a mistake against his own agenda. He doesn’t realize the consequences of some of these numbers.

Majority of BoZ numbers need to be thrown out.

It's reasonable to assume that Vegeta isn't nearly as good at ki amplification as Goku,

Good point but I think narrative wins here too and everything carries over into Namek. I think everyone’s ki amp is about the same.

Freeza underestimates Goku at 2.65 million, then gets serious at 3.2 million.

What do you have warm up Goku at?

The no hands thing is kinda subjective. You know how hard it is to fight without your arms? Even taking into account the fact that Freeza can levitate, it's still pretty damn hard. I'm pretty liberal with that gap as a result.

It should be quite large, I don’t think Cell could do that to Goku and I don’t think Vegeta could do that to Zarbon.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What do you have warm up Goku at?

No difference. He just took off his shirt and stretched. His perfomance doesn’t even change. Just goes from a easy 3mil to a trying 3mil.

Good point but I think narrative wins here too and everything carries over into Namek. I think everyone’s ki amp is about the same.

According to the narrative, Goku is superior to Vegeta in every way. He’s the Super Saiyan, Vegeta is just a wannabe.

 

[FeatsofPower]

No difference. He just took off his shirt and stretched. His perfomance doesn’t even change. Just goes from a easy 3mil to a trying 3mil.

Goku literally says he’s holding back dude there has to be a difference.

According to the narrative, Goku is superior to Vegeta in every way. He’s the Super Saiyan, Vegeta is just a wannabe.

I don’t think that would include ki amp

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku literally says he’s holding back dude there has to be a difference.

He just says he’s warming up, 100% Freeza also calls his initial assault a warm up. That’s a very vague line that means nothing if it’s not followed by an actual power up or statement.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You know what man? Fuck these fucking guidebook numbers. Been reading some stuff about the new series and if Toriyama doesn't even care about canon and continuity why should I care about some shitty numbers he probably doesn't even know about?

I still want to see more concrete evidence than just Goku taking off his shirt though. If there's a power up here it's not very big.

 

[FeatsofPower]

You know what man? Fuck these fucking guidebook numbers. Been reading some stuff about the new series and if Toriyama doesn't even care about canon and continuity why should I care about some shitty numbers he probably doesn't even know about?

I still want to see more concrete evidence than just Goku taking off his shirt though. If there's a power up here it's not very big.

Freeza- Hey I’ve been holding back

Goku- Me too

I dont know if it gets any easier than this. If there’s dialogue suggesting someone is not going all out and then a change is suggested, I mean, what more do you want? They don’t do full on power ups every time

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's not what they say though. And they're still holding back tons for several chapters.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Viz fooled me. Freeza says "I'll have to get serious soon" there, sounding like he's not getting serious yet, but in Herms he just says "That's enough warm up". I'll have it your way.

Chapter: 310 (DBZ 116), P14.1-2
Context: after fighting with Goku for some time
Freeza: “I’m starting to feel like that’s enough warming up…”
Goku: “Me too”.

Spoiler

 

[FeatsofPower]

I'll have it your way.

Great. So let's see what we agree on up to this point.

Freeza (No Hands) > Freeza Warming Up > Freeza vs Initial Goku

And do you agree with

Freeza (vs Vegeta's Blast) > Freeza (Increased Speed) > Freeza Initial vs Vegeta?

 

[Kyo]

What gave you the impression that powered up Ginyu was that far ahead of 75k Goku?

Were you asking me that? My bad.
That one's weird because Goku's stated to be faster than Ginyu is (the way he says it suggests Goku might even be faster than his full power), but Ginyu seems stronger in turn and Goku needs the Kaioken to break loose from his hold. So I just gave Ginyu a higher number for being stronger.

 

[Kyo]

I think the author is making a mistake against his own agenda. He doesn’t realize the consequences of some of these numbers.

Majority of BoZ numbers need to be thrown out.

I agree most should be thrown out, but not that one. That one's actually used in a fight and is therefore extremely relevant, and it and SBC are the only times we're directly shown the size of an amp. It's one thing to call out the impossibility of the humans' levels, but it's another thing entirely to throw the Raditz levels away. Reconcile Vegeta's amp or whatever some other way.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The deal breaker for me is the Nappa fight. One Kamehameha from Kuririn alone should be nearing 4k with that kind of boost, yet Gohan can’t even break 3k?

 

[Goku9001]

That's a good point. Tenshinhan's Kikoho and an uncharged SBC from Piccolo is certainly below 2.8k which prevents ki amplification from being 2.2x. Toriyama may have simply changed his mind or the Z Senshi is capable of surfacing mroe of their ki without relying on ki blasts to do it. I don't know. One thing I know for certain is that this idea of there being a multifold ki amplification this early in the series likely changed.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The deal breaker for me is the Nappa fight. One Kamehameha from Kuririn alone should be nearing 4k with that kind of boost, yet Gohan can’t even break 3k?

Exactly. It's nothing other than author error. When given a chance to quantify these gaps, he proved he epically went against his own agenda. The blasts have never been all that strong.

That's a good point. Tenshinhan's Kikoho and an uncharged SBC from Piccolo is certainly below 2.8k which prevents ki amplification from being 2.2x. Toriyama may have simply changed his mind or the Z Senshi is capable of surfacing mroe of their ki without relying on ki blasts to do it. I don't know. One thing I know for certain is that this idea of there being a multifold ki amplification this early in the series likely changed.

Yeah, it never carried on. All of the evidence proves this. It's just his first time putting numbers he thought it looked good but didn't realize the massive consequences.

You either choose numbers or narrative. Both are wrong. Or you go the defensive ki amp route, which is even more absurd.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Gohan: 320,000

You think Gohan beats Weighted Piccolo?

 

[Dagon]

I'll try to make carddass numbers work lol.

There are a number of late Dtagon Ball & early DBZ numbers higher than the Daizenshuu levels and the manga/anime levels. Might rationalize 400-ish Goku and Piccolo to be their standing power, with fighting power higher.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You think Gohan beats Weighted Piccolo?

This is a good question. I think Kyo has Gohan a bit too close, but I too have Gohan > Weighted Piccolo.

Gohan: 300,000
Piccolo: 270,000

Sure, Piccolo wants to save Gohan, but he always does that. See the Cell Games. He also hasn’t sensed Gohan’s FP.

 

[FeatsofPower]

This is a good question. I think Kyo has Gohan a bit too close, but I too have Gohan > Weighted Piccolo.

Gohan: 300,000
Piccolo: 270,000

Sure, Piccolo wants to save Gohan, but he always does that. See the Cell Games. He also hasn’t sensed Gohan’s FP.

Enraged Gohan > Piccolo > Gohan

Is the status quo is it not?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Enraged Gohan > Piccolo > Gohan

Is the status quo is it not?

But what about weighted Piccolo?

 

[FeatsofPower]

But what about weighted Piccolo?

Androids Saga Weighted Piccolo > Gohan even when suppressed.

Piccolo is always stronger except when Gohan learns Super Saiyan or when he’s mad.