Freezer 50% > Semi Perfect Cell.

[Evil Vegeta]

Yamcha: “Anyway, I’ve really had it with the gravity here. My body’s heavy and I can’t even run easily.”

Goku got used to the gravity and was able to catch Bubbles despite being weighted. That was before the real training started.

 

[freezamite]

Well the "gag 'tone' " from Dragon Ball pretty much disappeared after the 22nd Budokai, whereas the series took a way more serious feeling, like I mentioned.

Yes, the gag tone mostly disappeared from the King Piccolo saga onward (even if we still saw plenty of animal-humans like the king of the world being a blue dog) but the fights were still designed around the plot instead of the organic way they're designed in the post-power level sagas.
In the 22nd Budokai we have scenes like the end of Piccolo vs Goku fight that demonstrate that Toriyama still hadn't grown as much as a writter, or he simply felt he could still innovate through showing new techniques (he almost throws everything in terms of technique variety in Piccolo's fight against Goku).

The same way that the power levels weren't thought up before the Saiyans saga (so AT couldn't be entirely consistent with it) it was also out of AT's mind after the Boo saga, no?

But the thing is that AT didn't forgot about weights in the Boo saga. There are several other instances of high gravity scenes in the Boo saga (more than in the Cell saga).
We have Goku's weight feat, we have Vegeta training at 150G with kid Trunks, we have Pui Pui's planet's 10G as a subtle way to point us towards the power he may have had -a souped up Saiyan level warrior- even without not accounting for the RoSAT.
Nothing indicates that Toriyama forgot about the gravity system he had established in previous sagas, in fact, if we compare it with the Cell saga, he clearly used it more there.

While the series always had power gaps statements of opponent x being slightly or way stronger than opponent y, AT wasn't probably thinking under a numerical standpoint anymore, the same way there are a lot of statements clearly painting a hierarchical in the 23rd Budokai, although AT wasn't with numbers in mind there, either.

Even if him abandoning the scoutters allowed for more ambiguous approaches, there are certain things that Toriyama is always coherent with. For example, the power gaps. They were coherent while the numerical system was everywhere, but it clearly maintained this coherency in the figths designed afterwards.
Even if the power scale wasn't as detailed, we were always given direct comparisons with previously established characters that allowed us to approximate pretty well what Toriyama had on mind.
Post power level DB is in a different league in terms of writting quality, and even if there are some deeps here and there, it's still one of the best mangas ever drawn when it comes to power scaling. With numbers or without them.

AT also introducced the 400 number for Goku in the Saiyan Saga, and 23rd Budokai Goku shouldn't be THAT much different, I guess. So considering Goku couldn't move in the Boo saga under a 40 tons weight and could move just fine in the Saiyan Saga under a 100 kg, then he couldn't be even as strong as 300k when doing the math. If we go by the fact that Toriyama keeps his numbers consistent with those lifting feats, then I think he'd also be taking into consideration that ~400 BP Goku can move just fine while wearing a 100kg wearing.

As I've said, Toriyama only established the gravity system in correlation with a level of strength in the saiyan saga. Goku had already trained with weights with Mutenroshi, so I'm sure that if you scale with the power Goku had there to the 23rd budokay it will be incoherent as well.
And let alone if you count the weight Goku moved when he pushed that giant rock after his training with Mutenroshi. A scale system can only be coherent after it's been established, and it's only in the saiyan saga that Toriyama did it.
If he had only used the gravity/weight system in the Bu saga once you could have a point, but as I've said Toriyama used the increased gravity feats a lot in the Bu saga, and they were all consistent with what had been previously introduced. I don't think there's a good reason to think that Toriyama only forgot about his own system just for that scene, and it's even less plausible to me when you think that it coincides with what I think Goku should be able to do with his strength.

Oops, I meant base kid Trunks. Regarding Gohan, he states his body feels heavy in the room, which seems to be associated with the gravity there. The low oxygen and temperature would be related with other things, I guess. Yamcha also mentioned something like feeling uneasy with the gravity in Kaio's planet, despite being stronger than Raditz. AT just doesn't seem to put much thought into these kind of feats and neither does Toyotaro apparently (considering Trunks mastered the Z sword and still had problems against Dabra in SSJ).

Gohan complains about everything (from the gravity to the difficulty he has to breath to how hot it is when they enter the room), but it's only logical, he knows nothing about the 10G gravity and he suddenly feels it. But as seen in the manga, he has no problem to deal with it. The same for Yamcha, it's logic that he feels the 10G gravity (in fact, relative body weight is pretty important in DB. Piccolo's weighted clothes are still a factor even after he fused Kami, Trunks's inflated body made him ultra-slow, even when in terms of weight increase it should be no more than 100 extra kilos at best), but he can already walk there much better than Goku when he arrived there -and he also did the snake-walk in a month, while Goku needed 3 or 4, which is pretty consistent with the power they had even if it can perfectly just be a coincidence-.

Toriyama changed his style. Firstly he started with the tone -end of kid Goku's sagas and 22nd Budokay- and with the help of the power levels he evolved the style of his fights as well.

 

[ahill1]

In the 22nd Budokai we have scenes like the end of Piccolo vs Goku fight that demonstrate that Toriyama still hadn't grown as much as a writter, or he simply felt he could still innovate through showing new techniques (he almost throws everything in terms of technique variety in Piccolo's fight against Goku).

I don't see much difference in the 23rd Budokai compared to others fights, honestly. It might have had more techniques, but kid Goku vs Piccolo Daimao three years before, for example, occurred with a less use of techniques, barring Goku's KMHMH (which is something he uses even after the Saiyan Saga) and Piccolo's Bakurikimaha. The 23rd Budokai was pretty much defined to who was the stronger, as pretty much was the majority of things before it, barring some scenes like Tenshinhan winning against Goku by dumb luck, or Jackie Chun winning with strategy.

Even in the Gotenks SSJ3 vs Super Boo we do have this same aspect, whereas a lot of techniques were introducced by Gotenks, who only lost by dumb luck, with his fusion running out at the crucial moment. So AT didn't completely abandoned it yet, I'd say, although the "gag tone" was presented in a much smaller proportion, just like in the 23rd Budokai.

But the thing is that AT didn't forgot about weights in the Boo saga. There are several other instances of high gravity scenes in the Boo saga (more than in the Cell saga).

Instances where they aren't entirely consistent, I'd say. Just like the 150G being too much for base kid Trunks, who had to be told by Vegeta to left the room, despite 90,000 Goku already mastering a gravity with 60% its 'pressure'.

Nothing indicates that Toriyama forgot about the gravity system he had established in previous sagas, in fact, if we compare it with the Cell saga, he clearly used it more there.

Well, Toriyama also introducced the weight system at the 23rd Budokai and at the initial Saiyans saga, where we have Goku being surprised Piccolo is also training with them. Even if we go with AT not being entirely consistent with them prior to the Saiyan Saga (due to the absence of numbers), he had a base to introduce the gravity system ---> Piccolo and Goku managing to deal with 100kg at the lows 400.

Goku had already trained with weights with Mutenroshi, so I'm sure that if you scale with the power Goku had there to the 23rd budokay it will be incoherent as well.

Not necessarily inconsostent. Goku with the 20kg turtle shell could only do the daily exercises, like farming, swimming, running from a T-Rex. Goku at the 23rd Budokai could jump at incredibly high speeds and fight against Tenshinhan at a super human speed. So Goku's level of mastery over the 100 kg >>> Goku's level of mastery over 20kg.

But ok, Toriyama hadn't thought about numbers in the "training with Roshi --- 23rd Budokai gap" (despite putting a lot of statements like "many times stronger", "not using even half of my power"). But Goku's maestry over a 100kg wearing was assigned with a number ---> 334~416. At that level Goku could fight at astounding 100kg wearing like without even feeling it. AT knew that a ~ 400 BP would allow you it and could have scaled things from there. Even though we saw how he wasn't entirely consistent with those numbers.

To simplify:

Muten Roshi training to 23rd Budokai ---> AT doesn't have to be entirely consistent since the numeric system had yet to be introduced (though it doesn't mean he wasn't)

23rd Budokai/Saiyan Saga to Boo saga ---> the numeric system was already introduced in the Saiyan Saga and AT knew that with a BP of 400 you could handle 100kg, so he could/should have been consistent with it... doesn't mean he was.

One thing is to compare the beginning of the series to the 23rd Budokai. The other one is to compare the 23rd Budokai/Saiyan Saga (where the numbers were introduced) to the Boo saga.

Gohan complains about everything (from the gravity to the difficulty he has to breath to how hot it is when they enter the room), but it's only logical, he knows nothing about the 10G gravity and he suddenly feels it. But as seen in the manga, he has no problem to deal with it. The same for Yamcha, it's logic that he feels the 10G gravity (in fact, relative body weight is pretty important in DB.

It's shown if they have or no problems to deal with it. They might seem unaffected when they are just standing around, doing nothing... as was Goku in a 10x gravity (when just dicking around):
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-16-index-2-page-11.html

Yamcha specifically noted he could barely run:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-67-index-2-page-2.html

And Gohan initially was pretty much standing there and trying to transform into a SSJ. The first time he was shown moving at high speed was when he already had gotten a bit older, and Goku was standing time trying to find a level beyond SSJ.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

You're one of a kind freezamite, never change.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Kid Trunks >= Goku [Ginyu Arc] because of their feats.

 

[Keedounan]

Yeah, one has to be serious for a moment.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, one has to be serious for a moment.

What?

 

[Dragon15]

Was the gravity the same as earth when Goku lift 40t? Just saying. We don't have info but who knows.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Nope, that was 10x gravity at very least.

 

[Dragon15]

It was heaven not a kaio's planet I believe.(arguing against myself lol)
At the same time, gravity does nothing to spirits. But Goku is not a spirit. He has a body. What is heaven's gravity?

 

[Keedounan]

Yeah, one has to be serious for a moment.

What?

I was reacting to Freeza 50 % > Semi Perfect Cell (which Freezamite thinks...somehow).

 

[freezamite]

I don't see much difference in the 23rd Budokai compared to others fights, honestly.
It might have had more techniques, but kid Goku vs Piccolo Daimao three years before, for example, occurred with a less use of techniques, barring Goku's KMHMH (which is something he uses even after the Saiyan Saga) and Piccolo's Bakurikimaha. The 23rd Budokai was pretty much defined to who was the stronger, as pretty much was the majority of things before it, barring some scenes like Tenshinhan winning against Goku by dumb luck, or Jackie Chun winning with strategy.

It's (like the majority of the pre-power levels fights) clearly plot based.
What that means is that the internal coherence of those fights was often compromised to prioritise other aspects like the momentum of the fight or the "epicness" of it.
It's a less disciplined way of writting. You want something to happen, you make it happen even at the expense of being coherent.
As I said before, that change in style didn't happen in one day, King Piccolo vs Goku is mostly power focused even if not as good as the post-power level fights (even if King Piccolo's problems to use all his strength were stated beforehand and had also been weakened, Goku was too injured to do what he did. He basically pulled his strongest attack when he was in his weakest state. It was a good scene, but it's simply not as good as post power level fights, it's like a well done Toei/One Piece fight).
In the same way, the fight against Raditz can be argued to be the worst of the post power level introduction, but that's also because it was the first one of them and the one that introduced the basic principles Toriyama would adhere to from there onward).

Even in the Gotenks SSJ3 vs Super Boo we do have this same aspect, whereas a lot of techniques were introducced by Gotenks, who only lost by dumb luck, with his fusion running out at the crucial moment. So AT didn't completely abandoned it yet, I'd say, although the "gag tone" was presented in a much smaller proportion, just like in the 23rd Budokai.

Yes, that's true, but the difference here is the context. Even if the SSJ3 Gotenks vs Super Boo fight constantly throws new techniques, the internal rules of the series when it came to fights were already strongly established. Furthermore, the new techniques didn't serve the purpose of trying to impress the reader like in the 22nd budokay, they were an excuse to make the fight as fun as possible.
In other words, do you remember the "scorching kame hame" from Goku in the 22nd budokay? It was supposed to be the new evolution of the KKH, a trick to impress the reader, and it ended being used just in that scene. It was a "special KHH" for the sake of making the scene cooler, and nothing more.
Even if superficially they seem similar, the Super Bu vs SSJ 3 Gotenks fight is much, much better written and it also introduces a lot of gag elements that make it one of the funniest fights of the whole series. On the other hand, I find Goku vs Piccolo Jr one of the blandest because of how it was a step in the wrong direction in terms of evolving to the more organic design the fights ended having, while trying to be serious. Bad combination.

Instances where they aren't entirely consistent, I'd say. Just like the 150G being too much for base kid Trunks, who had to be told by Vegeta to left the room, despite 90,000 Goku already mastering a gravity with 60% its 'pressure'.

We don't even know if 150G Trunks was really using all his Ki in that scene. In DB you can put a lot of effort at something while still using only 50% of your Ki. He is shown there being barely able to walk, and he decides to turn into SSJ to easily defeat the gravity. Furthermore, how strong do you think the kids were in base? Because even if they were born as SSJ, they didn't train like their fathers.
So in other words, it wouldn't surprise me if their strength was at around 100.000 at base, because even if they had their powers unlocked since they were born it's also true that they lacked training.
I personally think that Trunks and Goten were at around 120.000 at their base state, but that Trunks wasn't using all his ki in that scene. For him, that was born as a SSJ, turning into a SSJ was much more comfortable than forcing his body in base state.

Well, Toriyama also introducced the weight system at the 23rd Budokai and at the initial Saiyans saga, where we have Goku being surprised Piccolo is also training with them.

In fact, he introduced it in the training with Mutenroshi, with those turtle shells. It's just that the first time that a concrete strength is associated to a weight/gravity is in the saiyan saga, and as I've said, from there onward the scale becomes consistent.
The saiyan saga was the one that established Toriyama's new narrative style, it introduced (backed with numbers as well) the concepts of losing power after being injured, how the Ki attacks worked (concentrated ki), how ki could be manipulated, the power gaps needed to defeat an opponent... and also the gravity/weight system related to a given power level. And since it remains coherent from then onward that's why I consider the previous feats to be the outliers.

Even if we go with AT not being entirely consistent with them prior to the Saiyan Saga (due to the absence of numbers), he had a base to introduce the gravity system ---> Piccolo and Goku managing to deal with 100kg at the lows 400.

From the 22nd Budokay to the Saiyan saga there is a 5 years gap I think, where both Goku and Piccolo not only trained but grew into adults (which also impacts strength as it's logic).
We know Piccolo trained because that's all he was doing and he even developed a new technique, and Goku was still a bit above him so even if Piccolo trained harder, Goku also trained as well.
Furthermore, those 100kg weren't preventing Goku from moving. He could still move as fast as when he fought King Piccolo, while the 10G suddenly proved to be too much to even properly run (even after he took his weighted clothes off).

Goku with the 20kg turtle shell could only do the daily exercises, like farming, swimming, running from a T-Rex. Goku at the 23rd Budokai could jump at incredibly high speeds and fight against Tenshinhan at a super human speed. So Goku's level of mastery over the 100 kg >>> Goku's level of mastery over 20kg.

And he still was able to push a rock that weighted several tons.

But ok, Toriyama hadn't thought about numbers in the "training with Roshi --- 23rd Budokai gap" (despite putting a lot of statements like "many times stronger", "not using even half of my power"). But Goku's maestry over a 100kg wearing was assigned with a number ---> 334~416. At that level Goku could fight at astounding 100kg wearing like without even feeling it. AT knew that a ~ 400 BP would allow you it and could have scaled things from there. Even though we saw how he wasn't entirely consistent with those numbers.

It's not a matter of putting numbers or not, it's all about his narrative style. Toriyama matured a lot in that regard, it's easy to prove analysing the fights. Feats given during sagas of the manga that share the same internal coherence can't be compared to feats from sagas that didn't adhere to those same principles.

To simplify:

Muten Roshi training to 23rd Budokai ---> AT doesn't have to be entirely consistent since the numeric system had yet to be introduced (though it doesn't mean he wasn't)

23rd Budokai/Saiyan Saga to Boo saga ---> the numeric system was already introduced in the Saiyan Saga and AT knew that with a BP of 400 you could handle 100kg, so he could/should have been consistent with it... doesn't mean he was.

One thing is to compare the beginning of the series to the 23rd Budokai. The other one is to compare the 23rd Budokai/Saiyan Saga (where the numbers were introduced) to the Boo saga.

The fact is that 23rd Budokai numbers aren't comparable even with Saiyan saga numbers even when they're pretty close between them. It's a matter of when Toriyama decides to adhere to the principles he continued to develop during the series. If the 23rd Budokai had been an evolution towards the more organic fight design that the King Piccolo fight started to play with (even when it still ends how it ends) it would be different, but it's in fact the opposite, the fight has glaring examples of how those principles hadn't been introduced still.

And Gohan initially was pretty much standing there and trying to transform into a SSJ. The first time he was shown moving at high speed was when he already had gotten a bit older, and Goku was standing time trying to find a level beyond SSJ.

Trying to turn into a SSJ is not the same as standing still doing nothing. Gohan surely wasted far more ki trying to trigger the transformation that simply running once after he already controlled the SSJ form.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

The 40 tons thing is biggest outlier known to man kind

 

[ahill1]

It's (like the majority of the pre-power levels fights) clearly plot based.
What that means is that the internal coherence of those fights was often compromised to prioritise other aspects like the momentum of the fight or the "epicness" of it.

The Dragon Balls fight still have been highly conherent and even if it puts more weight on techniques the strength it's what it is more valuable. Rare are the times whereas a weaker character won against a stronger one due to being more skilled or experienced, with just Goku vs Jackie Chun at the 23rd Budokai comming to mind.

As I said before, that change in style didn't happen in one day, King Piccolo vs Goku is mostly power focused even if not as good as the post-power level fights

But as I said, there was already a change in style post 22nd Budokai, which was the transition between a less serious manga into a "more power related one" (even though "strength" was what mostly mattered since the beginning).

even if not as good as the post-power level fights

In your opinion. In my opinion it was one of the better fights, on par with Piccolo vs #17

He basically pulled his strongest attack when he was in his weakest state.

Piccolo was also pretty weakened at that moment as well, so that attack doesn't have to be above Goku's normal power level to be able to kill Piccolo.

Even if the SSJ3 Gotenks vs Super Boo fight constantly throws new techniques, the internal rules of the series when it came to fights were already strongly established. Furthermore, the new techniques didn't serve the purpose of trying to impress the reader like in the 22nd budokay, they were an excuse to make the fight as fun as possible.

Not all techniques, like the generic "Chocolate punch", Magnum Sundae", "Ultra Missile Parfait" but the ones like Galactica Donut" and The "Kamikaze Ghost" were obviously made up to be something to elevate the tension. With the former Gotenks thought Boo would be killed too soon and we have Boo making an act, pretending to being overwhelmed by the attack (http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-296-index-2.html). As for the Kamikaze Ghost, the chapter ended up with Gotenks still in the proccess of doing the technique and one of the Ghosts being expelled from his mouth (basically to high up the tension built upon the technique). The title of the following chapeter was even "The Kamikaze Ghost!" so it clearly had the purpose of impressing the reader, even more than the 22nd Budokai's ones I'd say:

Piccolo's reactions of "What is that? I've never seen such a thing" is pretty much the readers' (at least that was the way I reacted one seeing the technique).

On the other hand, I find Goku vs Piccolo Jr one of the blandest because of how it was a step in the wrong direction in terms of evolving to the more organic design the fights ended having,

I also don't like Goku vs Piccolo junior too much and think it would be better made taking off all those techniques. It's also worth the majority of those moves were just a failure in general (with Goku flat out discovering the weak spot of Piccolo's giant form and the blast that always follows you ). He also identified Tenshinhan's "12 eyes" weak spot, so a current theme in that Budokai was a character thinking of a move and Goku quickly hitting its weak spot haha.

We don't even know if 150G Trunks was really using all his Ki in that scene. In DB you can put a lot of effort at something while still using only 50% of your Ki. He is shown there being barely able to walk, and he decides to turn into SSJ to easily defeat the gravity.

Well, if he weren't using all of his chi at that point, then I'd imagine he would resorting to using all of his base chi rather than transforming. Him saying "no choice, I'll have to go SSJ (iirc)" tells me the SSJ was his only way of effective mastering said gravity.

Furthermore, how strong do you think the kids were in base? Because even if they were born as SSJ, they didn't train like their fathers.
So in other words, it wouldn't surprise me if their strength was at around 100.000 at base, because even if they had their powers unlocked since they were born it's also true that they lacked training.

I honestly have them in base as high as Androids saga SSJ Vegeta, taking into account the fight they were able to put up against #18. So, way higher than you have :mrgreen:

In fact, he introduced it in the training with Mutenroshi, with those turtle shells

True, dunno why I jumped that.

It's just that the first time that a concrete strength is associated to a weight/gravity is in the saiyan saga, and as I've said, from there onward the scale becomes consistent.

I think it should also have been consistent with what he presented at the Saiyans saga. He assigned a 334 power level for Saiyan Saga Goku, and there's no reason he'd go with a different route compared to the 23rd Budokai. He showed Goku wearing weighted clothes at the Raditz's arrival (which should have been the 100kg or more) and showed that a 334 power level is pretty much able to lift said weights like nothing.

it introduced (backed with numbers as well) the concepts of losing power after being injured

It was already in the early Dragon Ball as well, like when Goku couldn't compete with a Tambourine after an exhaustive match against Tenshinhan in the 22nd Budokai, how he needed Yajirobe to climb the tower after being completely beated by Piccolo Daimao (which his pre Karin self already could do), Tenshinhan barely having energy to use the Bukujutsu after being injured by Drum and so on. The concept has always been there, just not in the form of numbers.

how the Ki attacks worked (concentrated ki)

Chi attacks amplifying one's power was already presented in the early DB as well, even as soon as the Pilaf Saga. Goku's shitty KMHMH (it wasn't nearly as powerful as a well trained should be) opened a small hole on Pilaf's building, whereas Goku and Yamcha's punches couldn't do, or how the KMHMH was presented as Yamcha's trump card in the 22nd Budokai, whereas even his Rogafufuken (which is already amplified as well) didn't work. Just the "concentrating it in one point" explanation as of why it should be amplified wasn't presented, though that already should be a bit clear based on Yamcha's description of the KMHMH back in the Pilaf saga.

the power gaps needed to defeat an opponent

That's due to the numbers not being introducced yet, though we could comapare some DB fights and figure its gaps just fine.

And since it remains coherent from then onward that's why I consider the previous feats to be the outliers.

There're outlier feats, like Roshi's moon boost KMHMH. Although I don't consider all of them an outlier and think it's fair to use them for the "DBZ" as well.

where both Goku and Piccolo not only trained but grew into adults (which also impacts strength as it's logic).

They were much different physically compared to their 23rd Budokai's selves:

Spoiler

Spoiler

The difference came mainly after the one year training for Nappa and Vegeta's arrival:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Furthermore, those 100kg weren't preventing Goku from moving. He could still move as fast as when he fought King Piccolo, while the 10G suddenly proved to be too much to even properly run (even after he took his weighted clothes off).

Aye, Goku could move just well under the 100kg clothes, even better than under those eight tons in the Boo saga.

And he still was able to push a rock that weighted several tons.

Pushing a rock is rather different than lifting it. I can push a car depending of the situation, but lifting it is entirely different. At the Pilaf Saga Goku was able to lift and crash a rock, albeit a way smaller one.

It's not a matter of putting numbers or not, it's all about his narrative style. Toriyama matured a lot in that regard, it's easy to prove analysing the fights. Feats given during sagas of the manga that share the same internal coherence can't be compared to feats from sagas that didn't adhere to those same principles.

As I already said, I believe Toriyama's writing style change came mostly after the 22nd Budokai. A lot of things presented in the fights in "DBZ" were also presented in DB.

The fact is that 23rd Budokai numbers aren't comparable even with Saiyan saga numbers even when they're pretty close between them. It's a matter of when Toriyama decides to adhere to the principles he continued to develop during the series. If the 23rd Budokai had been an evolution towards the more organic fight design that the King Piccolo fight started to play with (even when it still ends how it ends) it would be different, but it's in fact the opposite, the fight has glaring examples of how those principles hadn't been introduced still.

The 23rd Budokai introduced rather different techniques compared to even the Kid Goku vs Piccolo Junior fight, sure, but "strength" was still the primary reason that'd decide a battle. Most of the techniques brought up weren't even effective, almost all having a weak spot identified by Goku. I don't think the introduction of such techniques doesn't show that those principles weren't introduced yet, imo. If you ask me, those techniques were even more important in the Raditz battle than it was in the 23rd Budokai, whereas Piccolo's makankosappo could shift the battle into their favor, while the 23rd Budokai's were just generally useless. In the Raditz Saga Piccolo junior also seems to place a considerable importance in learning new moves, calling Goku lazy for not learning them.

Trying to turn into a SSJ is not the same as standing still doing nothing. Gohan surely wasted far more ki trying to trigger the transformation that simply running once after he already controlled the SSJ form.

Gohan noticed how trying to turn and keep the SSJ chi is extremely tiresome, but he was basically just standing in a place, trying to transform, nothing that would demand a high mastery over the gravity, imo. Besides, 1 minute outside is like 6 hours in the RoSaT. Goku could have helped Gohan master the gravity and then, after it, make him turn into a SSJ. The anime even has Gohan initially falling into the ground as soon as he stepped to train iirc.

 

[freezamite]

The 40 tons thing is biggest outlier known to man kind

The 40 tons feat is completely coherent with any weight/gravity feat seen from the saiyan saga onwards. So the only outliers are kid Goku's mountain pushing feat and the 23rd budokay feat that contradicts anything post saiyan saga.

The Dragon Balls fight still have been highly conherent and even if it puts more weight on techniques the strength it's what it is more valuable. Rare are the times whereas a weaker character won against a stronger one due to being more skilled or experienced, with just Goku vs Jackie Chun at the 23rd Budokai comming to mind.

Pre saiyan saga DB fight aren't that coherent. The fight against Piccolo Jr for example, just in the scene before Goku deals the final blow (Goku only flew into the sky and let the gravity do the rest) Piccolo proves to still be much stronger than any of the z-warriors, including God who should've had all his power because he wasn't beaten in the usual way.
And even if Krilin or Ten had fought and can be argued that weren't at his 100%, they still should've had more energy than what Toriyama gave them. It's still clearly a pre-power level fight.

But as I said, there was already a change in style post 22nd Budokai, which was the transition between a less serious manga into a "more power related one" (even though "strength" was what mostly mattered since the beginning).

Yes, and as I said even if Toriyama changed the tone of the series his narrative style when it came to the fight was still much, much closer to DB part 1 than to any post-power levels fight. And it's easy to understand why. Toriyama used the power levels as a way to introduce a lot of concepts. The power one loses after being injured, the difference needed to overpower, how one could be much stronger but still restrict the power of his hits... they were concepts that already appeared in DB part 1, but while they had a minor influence in part 1, in part 2 they were decisive factors that represented the foundations of any fight.

In your opinion. In my opinion it was one of the better fights, on par with Piccolo vs #17

If you only care about seeing techniques then maybe, but in terms of how it was constructed, it's context in the story and the way Toriyama had to force the z-warriors to not intervene on the fight even when plot-wise they should it's much worse than nearly any post-fight series.
If you compare it to Nappa vs Goku, Zarbon vs Vegeta rounds 1 & 2, A18 vs Vegeta, A17 vs Piccolo, SSJ Goku vs Freezer... the difference is simply too big.
In one hand you have organic fights designed around the rules Toriyama had established, on the other hand you have a technique showdown that ends when the author decides it has to end, with just some very basic rules that aren't well defined (for example, that the fighters lose strength when they're injured or tired, but it's never specified to which degree and it's pretty inconsistent even between scenes).
You may like it more, but it's undeniable the difference in quality.

Not all techniques, like the generic "Chocolate punch", Magnum Sundae", "Ultra Missile Parfait" but the ones like Galactica Donut" and The "Kamikaze Ghost" were obviously made up to be something to elevate the tension.

Are you seriously telling me that the Kamikaze Ghost technique wasn't there for comical reasons? Not only there are plenty of jokes regarding the Ghosts (they even kill themselves when they touch each other) but the way they catch bu is also comical.
The Galactic Donut you say, that attack that also was a joke in itself and had even Piccolo playing volleyball?
No, those techniques had nothing in common with the "super kamehame" besides being new and being techniques. The super kamehame was a technique meant to impress the reader but that wasn't well defined at all (what the hell did it do? Was it good because it reflected the opponent's ki against himself? Or was it just a bigger KHH that reflected Piccolo's attack because it was stronger? But if it was just a bigger KHH, what sense made calling it "super" when it's just the same but stronger -what would a saiyan saga KHH be called then, hyper KHH-?

Well, if he weren't using all of his chi at that point, then I'd imagine he would resorting to using all of his base chi rather than transforming. Him saying "no choice, I'll have to go SSJ (iirc)" tells me the SSJ was his only way of effective mastering said gravity.

In the various versions of the manga I have he doesn't say "no choise", but something like: "that's hard, I'll turn into a SSJ".
For someone that was born as a FP SSJ I'm sure that turning into a SSJ was more comfortable than using all his Ki in base, but as I've said, 120k for base kid Trunks is perfectly fine and would justify his problems at 150G even if he was going all out there.

I honestly have them in base as high as Androids saga SSJ Vegeta, taking into account the fight they were able to put up against #18. So, way higher than you have :mrgreen:

#18 didn't even know they weren't regular humans and of course fought with only a fraction of her strength. And she still won them comfortably and without even trying until they turned SSJ and became too powerful for her to handle.

I think it should also have been consistent with what he presented at the Saiyans saga. He assigned a 334 power level for Saiyan Saga Goku, and there's no reason he'd go with a different route compared to the 23rd Budokai. He showed Goku wearing weighted clothes at the Raditz's arrival (which should have been the 100kg or more) and showed that a 334 power level is pretty much able to lift said weights like nothing.

In fact Goku's power grew from 334 to 416 which means that wearing those clothes reduced his effective fighting capabilities considerably, and considering the scouter takes everything into account but the clothes only limited them in speed, I wouldn't be surprised if in terms of speed alone it was cut nearly in half.
I accept that feat as well since numbers were clearly given, and it's also pretty coherent with the other gravity/weight feats.

It was already in the early Dragon Ball as well, like when Goku couldn't compete with a Tambourine after an exhaustive match against Tenshinhan in the 22nd Budokai, how he needed Yajirobe to climb the tower after being completely beated by Piccolo Daimao (which his pre Karin self already could do), Tenshinhan barely having energy to use the Bukujutsu after being injured by Drum and so on. The concept has always been there, just not in the form of numbers.

And then we have scenes like the end of the 23rd Budokay or King Piccolo vs Goku that completely ignore the premise. It was there, that's true, but not in the same way it was after the power level introduction.

That's due to the numbers not being introducced yet, though we could comapare some DB fights and figure its gaps just fine.

You could try to guess most of them and you would probably be right, but there would be some glaring problems in some fights (the two I commented, for example) that you wouldn't be able to find in post-scoutters DB.
It still wasn't 100% defined as a rule yet.

They were much different physically compared to their 23rd Budokai's selves:

Yes in drawing style, but in terms of plot, 5 years passed between the 23rd Budokay and Raditz entrance. And in those 5 years if we are to believe what's said in the series, Goku and Piccolo grew stronger only by becoming adults (that's besides any extra gains made through training they could've done).

Aye, Goku could move just well under the 100kg clothes, even better than under those eight tons in the Boo saga.

40 tons, not 8.

Pushing a rock is rather different than lifting it. I can push a car depending of the situation

Man, a car has wheels that eliminate the friction and make it much easier to push. And even if it's true that pushing is easier than lifting, we are talking about rocks that were in the hundreds of tones at the very least, all while still wearing the turtle shells -although to tell the truth in DB speed and strength are different stats so that shouldn't affect the feat-.
It's still pretty inconsistent.

The 23rd Budokai introduced rather different techniques compared to even the Kid Goku vs Piccolo Junior fight, sure, but "strength" was still the primary reason that'd decide a battle. Most of the techniques brought up weren't even effective, almost all having a weak spot identified by Goku. I don't think the introduction of such techniques doesn't show that those principles weren't introduced yet, imo. If you ask me, those techniques were even more important in the Raditz battle than it was in the 23rd Budokai, whereas Piccolo's makankosappo could shift the battle into their favor, while the 23rd Budokai's were just generally useless. In the Raditz Saga Piccolo junior also seems to place a considerable importance in learning new moves, calling Goku lazy for not learning them.

It's not them learning new moves that made the 23rd budokay fight a bad one. It's those moves being there for the simple purpose of being there, with 0 impact besides seeming cool, and of course the 0 consistency between when a fighter would get pretty injured and/or survive a hit almost unscathed.
We go from Piccolo making every single z-warrior (including God) into nothing, to him being defeated by Goku falling from the sky in the next couple scenes between other scenes.
Now in the Raditz saga, the sole fact of putting numbers to every situation makes for a much more coherent scenario. It's not a fight to remember in terms of doing original things with power, but it at least is coherent in itself.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

The 40 tons thing is biggest outlier known to man kind

The 40 tons feat is completely coherent with any weight/gravity feat seen from the saiyan saga onwards. So the only outliers are kid Goku's mountain pushing feat and the 23rd budokay feat that contradicts anything post saiyan saga.

For once you're making sense. Hell, the 40 tons feat is actually one of the best lifting feats in this show, but for some reason people complain about that and not the ridiculously low/inconsistent gravity levels (Trunks needs to go Super Saiyan to move in x150 gravity when he's much stronger than the Vegeta that trained in x300 gravity? Seriously?).

 

[xmysticgohanx]

The 40 tons thing is biggest outlier known to man kind

The 40 tons feat is completely coherent with any weight/gravity feat seen from the saiyan saga onwards. So the only outliers are kid Goku's mountain pushing feat and the 23rd budokay feat that contradicts anything post saiyan saga.

For once you're making sense. Hell, the 40 tons feat is actually one of the best lifting feats in this show, but for some reason people complain about that and not the ridiculously low/inconsistent gravity levels (Trunks needs to go Super Saiyan to move in x150 gravity when he's much stronger than the Vegeta that trained in x300 gravity? Seriously?).

It is far from the best lifting feat. Base Goku before the god absorbtion has better feats on Kai's planet in dbs.

Tao throwing a stone pillar 2300 km requires way more than 40 tons of strength.

Nam leaping into the stratosphere requires way more than 40 tons of strength

 

[freezamite]

For once you're making sense. Hell, the 40 tons feat is actually one of the best lifting feats in this show, but for some reason people complain about that and not the ridiculously low/inconsistent gravity levels (Trunks needs to go Super Saiyan to move in x150 gravity when he's much stronger than the Vegeta that trained in x300 gravity? Seriously?).

Kid Trunks wasn't that strong. He was born as a SSJ so his transformation was second to none, but in terms of pure strength I don't think he is much above Goku when he reached Namek (100K more or less).

Tao throwing a stone pillar 2300 km requires way more than 40 tons of strength.

You can't do that when reading a fiction. Are you assuming Toriyama calculated how many strength Tao Pai Pai would've need to do that? Or how strong one should really be to endure any given gravity?
He simply felt gravity feats would be cool, incorporated that into the series and the only logic he followed was to be coherent with whatever he did regarding gravity feats (in a sense of "hey, I made Goku train in 10G to prepare for the saiyans, now it will be 100G and he will be 10 times stronger or even more").
Toriyama didn't do any calculation based on real world physics, so you shouldn't do them if you want to grasp what he had on mind when drawing those scenes.

 

[ahill1]

Pre saiyan saga DB fight aren't that coherent. The fight against Piccolo Jr for example, just in the scene before Goku deals the final blow (Goku only flew into the sky and let the gravity do the rest) Piccolo proves to still be much stronger than any of the z-warriors, including God who should've had all his power because he wasn't beaten in the usual way.
And even if Krilin or Ten had fought and can be argued that weren't at his 100%, they still should've had more energy than what Toriyama gave them. It's still clearly a pre-power level fight.

Which just shows how much stronger Piccolo was compared to the rest of them. Not even after losing power through get beaten by Goku, regenerating his arm and using the Bakurikimaha he was still beatable by God or the rest of the Z warriors. Like I showed, there're examples on Dragon Ball of fighters upon losing a considerable amount of chi losing to opponents they should be able to beat while at full power (Goku vs Tambourine being one of those), so it's not like "losing power from a beating, after a fight" didn't exist in DB.

Even in DBZ there're fights like this, like when Vegeta still had power to overpower Gohan and Kuririn after:

--being beaten by Kkx3 Goku
--being overpowered and hit by Goku's Kkx4 KMHMH
--losing a lot of power after creating that artificial moon
--reverting hack from Oozaru after having his tail chpped off (which according to early DB also probably causes a depletion in power, at least Goku always get unconscious after it)

He was still stronger than Yajirobe (who is >>> Kami) even after being hit by the Genki-Dama, which depleted his power so much he had some problems standing up, plus the fact that he stated how they have took a lot from him. Goku stated Piccolo has probably used all the chi he had remaining, but that was obviously wrong considering he still dished out a blast to hurt Goku's chest and later dished out a blast to complete vaporize him, pretty much like Piccolo Junior's father thought Goku hadn't nothing remaining after incapacitating three of his limbs.

The power one loses after being injured, the difference needed to overpower, how one could be much stronger but still restrict the power of his hits...

They also had a major importance in part 1. While the examples come more from "exhaustion" rather than being "beated up" they still were present. Did Piccolo lose power upon battling Goku? Of course he did, we have statements indicating such:

Chapter: 189, P1.3, P2.1
Context: Goku and Piccolo have been fighting a long time
Piccolo: “Even you are finally starting to show signs of fatigue.”
Goku: “You’re one to talk. Your punches are getting dull…”


Chapter: 191, P1.2 Context: followi...y just used up all the ki you had remaining.”

While using all the chi was obviously an exaggeration, it shows Piccolo still lost quite a lot of power after his Bakurikimaha.

If you only care about seeing techniques then maybe, but in terms of how it was constructed, it's context in the story and the way Toriyama had to force the z-warriors to not intervene on the fight even when plot-wise they should it's much worse than nearly any post-fight series.

No, I am talking about kid Goku vs young Piccolo Daimao and you were too. Reread your posts.

I like techniques when the thought behind them are good and it's not just a generic one like "dishing out chi blasts", "turning into a giant", I like complex one like Hunter x Hunter style, which I feel Dragon Ball lacks a bit.

Are you seriously telling me that the Kamikaze Ghost technique wasn't there for comical reasons?

Never said it wasn't. You've said they weren't made under the goal of impressing the reader, to which I showed why it isn't true. They might have been showed under a entertainment goal (like were some techniques at the 21st Budokai) AND to impress the reader. The chapter ends with Gotenks preparing the move and the upcoming chapter has the technique's name into its title, so it obviously had a "suspense air" into it, even if one of its goals was also to make things fun.

The Galactic Donut you say, that attack that also was a joke in itself and had even Piccolo playing volleyball?

Not that. That was the Super Donut Chain :wink:

No, those techniques had nothing in common with the "super kamehame" besides being new and being techniques

It had more to do with 21st Budokai's techniques as fas as entertainment goes. They were entertaining, but still made under the goal of impressing the reader, even Piccolo notices how he hasn't seen anything like this before, which was basically the reaction I had when seeing said technique.

In the various versions of the manga I have he doesn't say "no choise", but something like: "that's hard, I'll turn into a SSJ".

Yeah I checked Herms and it's not exactly mentioned "No choice", but he still said "How about I become SSJ"... this implies his only way of handling such gravity was turning into a SSJ, no implications he could do that at "full power base", not even that he "didn't try it".

#18 didn't even know they weren't regular humans and of course fought with only a fraction of her strength. And she still won them comfortably and without even trying until they turned SSJ and became too powerful for her to handle.

She realized they weren't normal humans as quickly as Mighty Mask kicked that random fighter out of the arena, to which #18 was like "he has a powerful punch". Mighty Mask also flew towards her before trading punches with her, so she could easily have concluded that such speed wasn't that of a normal human and upper her power. Later when the kids turned into SSJs, kid Trunks was obviously going for a blast above #18, but not too far above since he had no intentions of killing her... yet the blast ended up right around her power, which wouldn't be possible if she were using a fraction of her true power.

And then we have scenes like the end of the 23rd Budokay or King Piccolo vs Goku that completely ignore the premise. It was there, that's true, but not in the same way it was after the power level introduction.

It doesn't ignore the premise. Like mentioned above, Piccolo and Goku losing strength after attacks or after being injured was present in the fight through a statement from Piccolo and two from Goku. It's just that even after losing such strength he was still more than a match for the likes of Tenshinhan, Kami-sama, Kuririn and Yamcha, just like Vegeta was a match for Kuririn and later Yajirobe upon losing a lot of strength.

Yes in drawing style, but in terms of plot, 5 years passed between the 23rd Budokay and Raditz entrance. And in those 5 years if we are to believe what's said in the series, Goku and Piccolo grew stronger only by becoming adults (that's besides any extra gains made through training they could've done).

Not just by becoming adults but also via training. Goku specifically noticed how Piccolo has been also following the training with the weights, to which Piccolo replied "like you do" and later Piccolo mentions the need of a new technique. Those apsects were the main ones for them improving significantly, while they don't seem much more like adults than they do five years ago.

.

40 tons, not 8.

No, 8 tons. With 40 tons Goku couldn't even move and had to go SSJ. With 8 tons Goku was still using some effort to punch into the air and sweating, while he was just effortlessly handling 100kg moving at super speed without exhausting himself.

Man, a car has wheels that eliminate the friction and make it much easier to push.

Ok, take off the car part then. The point is that pushing something requires much less strength and effort than lifting.

And even if it's true that pushing is easier than lifting

There's no IF, IT IS true.

It's still pretty inconsistent.

At the "Mutenroshi training" part compared to the 23rd Budokai? Maybe. Not something that was used in the 23rd Budokai, used again in the Saiyans Saga with levels assigned for both Goku and Piccolo, though.

It's not them learning new moves that made the 23rd budokay fight a bad one. It's those moves being there for the simple purpose of being there, with 0 impact besides seeming cool, and of course the 0 consistency between when a fighter would get pretty injured and/or survive a hit almost unscathed.

Yes, I even mentioned it in one of my points. The techniques at the fight against Raditz had a bigger impact than the ones used in the 23rd Budokai. So I dunno why you keep bringing up those techniques as a way to show AT hadn't matured too much as a writer yet.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Aahil keeps embarrasing himself lol.