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No, because that same Piccolo is 1-hit Koed by Goku just falling from the sky without even accelerating with his own ki (he had almost none left).ahill1 said:
This is not the z-warriors being weaker because of reasons, this is Toriyama making them extremely weak for a scene because he needed it this way to advance the plot.
There's no way you can justify God being weaker than that Piccolo, not even 1st saga Goku would've been Koed by that (Nam's attack from the 21st Budokay was the exact same).
It's not even comparable.ahill1 said:
Vegeta starts being much, much stronger than anyone else, and gets progressively weaker as he is injured or wastes energy on his attacks. The fight is perfect because Goku's KKx3 is the highest feat from the whole fight (and it's done at the beginning).
Then we have the second, much weaker KKx3/KKx4 activation, a light Genkidama that had lost 50% of his strength before it was fired, and finally Gohan's own weight as an oozaru crushing Vegeta against the ground.
All of it was made while also injuring the z-warriors, in a very organic way.
To put Vegeta's fight at the same level of Piccolo's, it would be as if Ten Shin, Yamcha and Krilin arrived at the end of the fight but still were too weak to intervene on the fight while still at their 100%, and just after that Vegeta being koed by Gohan Oozaru's weight.
Considering that God was far weaker than Piccolo Jr at the 24th Budokay and that it took Vegeta multiple hits to beat Yajirobe I don't see the problem.ahill1 said:
Having problems to stand up is something that happens a lot after a lot of pain is infringed, and most of the times is temporary. And when it's not, then the characters really have no more energy to continue the fight.
The thing is that Piccolo Jr goes from >>> Krilin, Ten, Yamcha and God to be beaten with an attack that even 21st Budokay Goku endured. Epic? Maybe. Inconsistent? A lot.ahill1 said:
This doesn't happen in any post power level fight, and much less Vegeta's fight which is a masterpiece in how to design a power-level centred fight in an organic and natural way.
It even has details like Goku having to use a KKx4 to beat Vegeta for the second time because the KKx3 had weakened him even more than the beating he did to Vegeta.
Kid Goku vs Piccolo Daimao still had the problem of Goku's strongest hit being made when he is in his weakest state, but a part from that, it's pretty good.
Ok, let me refrain it then. 23rd Budokay techniques tried to be cool, Gotenks techniques just tried to be funny. The reader can be impressed by both, but it's clearly not the same.
Or it just means that turning into a SSJ was the easiest way to overcome the gravity, because for those two kids, turning SSJ was nothing. As I've said, 100-120K for kid Trunks and Goten are perfectly fine for me, but it's just that in their case where turning into SSJ and using a fraction of their energy was easier and less tiring than using full strength in base it would be the most logical option, and it can't be argued that they couldn't possibly have more strength.
It's ok if you think they didn't, in fact, seeing how that power level works well with the feats they performed your position is perfectly valid.
Yeah, but from that powerful punch to the level we are speaking there is a world in between. 18 thought that was a weird human, a 21st budokay Mutenroshi at best, not the two saiyans. That's why she was so surprised.
And she did, she reacted to their attacks and countered them. I'm just saying that since she didn't know who he was fighting against and she didn't want to kill him either, you can't judge the kid's strength based on 18's performance.
Even saiyans can draw his power instantly if needed, and besides the fact that I doubt she was even able to reduce his Ki in the usual way (I think all 18 did was to pull the strength of her punches) she saw how they turned into a SSJ before firing, so she surely wasn't taken 100% by surprise even if the attack was surprisingly strong for her.
Yes, it was said, but it wasn't backed by feats like it should have. King Piccolo and Goku both were stated to be weaker, yet the fight ended with Goku's best attack.
23rd Piccolo was also said to be below minimum, but in a scene to scene basis Toriyama didn't respect that. The premises were there as I said, but Toriyama's writting wasn't as refined as it became after the power-level introduction.
8 tons can't be used because you don't know for how long had Goku been training. In other words, the scenes where SSJ Goku appeared sweating in the RoSat because of the intense training meant that as a SSJ he couldn't even stand 10G? Or they simply meant that they had been training for a long, and that's why they were tired?
Another example is Vegeta and his 150G training. He is sweating while kid Trunks moves in it like nothing (while in SSJ). Does that mean that Trunks is stronger than Vegeta? No, it just means that Vegeta had been training for a while and was tired because of that.
The 40 tons feat can be used because that was a weight Goku couldn't handle. He still was able to not get teared a part but he couldn't move, that's why it can be used to say "until here". The 8 tons feats lacks information. For how long had Goku been training? Did he just started then and he had problems with those 8 tons already? We don't know this.
It doesn't matter if it's true (you're not speaking of pushing something above the ground, you're speaking of pushing something through the ground which is different), it's still thousands of tons against hundreds of kilos.
It doesn't matter, Toriyama didn't weight that rock nor even cared to approximate how it should weight. He simply wanted to show how strong Goku had become and made him push that rock.
It wasn't until the saiyan saga that it was defined how it worked, so the data given in the 23rd budokay is as useful as Goku's feat under Mutenroshi's training.
