Fusion Multipliers

[Fantastische Hure]

They perfected it even further, thus the boost increased. One of the manga scans I read said "they live to outdo each other, that helps too" or something like that. Basically it means they push each other to become higher and when you have someone pushing you to become better you become better and that means the fusion will also benefit from you becoming better since you are one of its components.

 

[GSM123]

Elder Kaio-Shin's comment doesn't necessarily imply a rival-boost.

Goten and Trunks just perfected the fusion-dance in the RoSaT, that's why it was much greater.

Why not? He literally points out their rivalry as a factor.

Doubtful. The narrator had already stated they perfected the fusion beforehand.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Elder Kaio-Shin's comment doesn't necessarily imply a rival-boost.

Goten and Trunks just perfected the fusion-dance in the RoSaT, that's why it was much greater.

Why not? He literally points out their rivalry as a factor.

Doubtful. The narrator had already stated they perfected the fusion beforehand.

You can read the post above yours. :mikey :mikey :mikey

They perfected it even further, you can even see Piccolo's reaction to the second dance. He was impressed.

 

[GSM123]

Not if I can’t read

“Perfect” basically means “flawless”. If they can improve it, then that contradicts the idea of them perfecting it. It also opens a possibility for people to argue Fat Boo > Gotenks since Goku said they’d have to perfect fusion to beat Boo.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

What if Goku only saw a fusion done half-heartedly.

They just did it even better, besides was it ever said they perfected it before?

 

[ahill1]

They perfected it even further, thus the boost increased. One of the manga scans I read said "they live to outdo each other, that helps too" or something like that. Basically it means they push each other to become higher and when you have someone pushing you to become better you become better and that means the fusion will also benefit from you becoming better since you are one of its components.

That's fine then, I was only justifying the varying boost for Metamorian's fusion on people's list. Btw, as a nitpick, Piccolo only stated the steps went down perfetly, meaning they didn't commit any coordination error like they had before, leading to those failure results. It doesn't necessarily mean they took the steps to a new level.

As for the "living to outdo each other", that was only VIZ. This is the original dialogue:


Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”


Notice that Elder Kaioshin specifically highlighted Goku and Vegeta's powers in the first part of the comment. The second part (the one which refers to the rivalry) is introducced with a "what's more", meaning it's separated from the first one. If rivalry were to be taken in the context of "living to outdo each other", wouldn't he just be reiterating the main reason highlighted on his comment -- their strength? That's why I think it's to be taken more in the context of "if two competitors/rivals perform this, the result will be stronger than if performed by ppl with the same strength but that don't share a rivalry".

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Strongest in-terms of brain and emotion because rivals are usually too prideful to join forces like this. :mikey :mikey :mikey

 

[SIAD]

I think the same as and take advantage of adding that Gotenks (Post Rosat) could pass from the Base state to the SSJ forms. While Gotenks (Pre Rosat) could not be transformed into SSJ, if they were merged into Base status, therefore it could be said that the Post Rosat Fusion was really Perfect, while the Pre Rosat Fusion was correct, but it could still be best.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Also I think another reason Vegetto's boost was way higher than Kibito-Shin's could be because fusion takes into account both component's highest level or what they are capable of. Normal Goku to Kaio-Shin or Kibito might not be that different in-terms of power but SSJ3 Goku & SSJ2 Vegeta are leagues ahead of either of them and normal Vegetto'd end-up leagues ahead of SSJ3 Goku & SSJ2 Vegeta.

 

[SIAD]

I also believe that Goku and Vegeta's Rival Boost only venerates the SSJ multiplier.

 Everything seems to indicate that the multiplier of SSJ in the Mergers is very small. It's a matter of seeing the scale: Gotenks SSJ (Pre)> Goku SSJ3 (Boo) >>>>> Gotenks Base (Pre) >>> Goku SSJ2 (Boo). I do not believe that the multiplier of the SSJ3 over the SSJ2 is greater than 50x.

 Ro Kaioshin makes the declaration of the rival impulse, only when Vegetto SSJ mistreated Gohan Boo. That makes me think that Vegetto's SSJ multiplier remained equally large. Vegetto SSJ seemed to do what he wanted with Gohan Boo. There is also the scale Vegetto SSJ3 (Boo) >= Goku SSJ4 (Initial) >>>>>> Super Baby Vegeta >> Vegetto SSJ (Boo)> = Baby Vegeta Base> Goku SSJ3 (Baby) >>>>>>> Goku Base (Baby)> Baby Gohan SSJ >>> Gohan Boo> = Vegetto Base (Boo).

 Also at the beginning of DBS, Goku talks about not even merging with Vegeta, they could defeat Beerus, which implies that Vegetto SSJ3 (Arc BoG)> Hypothetical Gokhan SSJ3 (Arc BoG). It could be explained that Goku only had that rival impulse with Vegeta, which implies that Gokhan would have a small SSJ multiplier, while Vegetto would have the large SSJ multiplier.

 

[GSM123]

What if Goku only saw a fusion done half-heartedly.

They just did it even better, besides was it ever said they perfected it before?

Did anyone say it was even better or that the synchrony even affects the power at all?

Here’s the narrator saying it it. and here’s the title chapter of SSJ Gotenks’ debut. Both implying they mastered the dance already.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Well it has to. Other-wise they wouldn't have failed the first two times. Piccolo was also impressed, despite having seen the dance before and knowing they could pull it off.

They mastered it as-in got it done but it could have been even better and yielded even better results.

 

[GSM123]

Well it has to. Other-wise they wouldn't have failed the first two times. Piccolo was also impressed, despite having seen the dance before and knowing they could pull it off.

They mastered it as-in got it done but it could have been even better and yielded even better results.

I suppose “perfect” is just a figure of speech in this case. Piccolo is indeed surprised at how easily they perform it in the Rosat and if doing it wrongly makes fusion weaker, then logically doing it perfectly would mean more power.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

See now you get it.

 

[ahill1]

Surely by perfect Piccolo didn't mean they did the steps right, that is, the steps and poses went down the right way? I don't think it means an improvement in regards to their pre RoSaT selves. Since Piccolo has seen an error on coordination before, leading to fat and skinny Gotenks, then it stands a reason he'd be wary of when watching them performing it.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

He wasn't wary after the first time they did it correct. He seemed perfectly fine just telling them to do it in another 30 minutes before.

 

[ahill1]

He wasn't wary after the first time they did it correct. He seemed perfectly fine just telling them to do it in another 30 minutes before.

They failed twice though. It's still a little risky. If they get a pose wrong, they'd be dead, so he seems relieved they at least got this part right.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Except Piccolo had no reason to worry about that anymore. You could even see the only thing he was worried about in the RoSaT was why Trunks and Goten didn't transform before fusing and whether they powered-up enough for Super-Boo.

 

[ahill1]

Except Piccolo had no reason to worry about that anymore. You could even see the only thing he was worried about in the RoSaT was why Trunks and Goten didn't transform before fusing and whether they powered-up enough for Super-Boo.

Yes he had. If they screw up the poses, which can't happen, they'd have to count with Boo's sweetness so they can try again. When they were planning to fight fat Boo, they'd likely perform the steps before heading to fight Boo. It's not because he didn't say beforehand that "I hope they do the poses right" that the concern isn't there.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

If he did have a concern it sure wasn't enough of a priority for us to be shown that via his thinking. He saw the dance in the RoSaT and thought "WOW!" they might actually have a chance of winning.