Fusion Multipliers

[Power Level Guy]

Well what's your real reasoning for fusion multipliers being different? If Base Goku = Base Gotenks and they are both SSJ3 level, you think that Goku should get a 50x boost and Gotenks only gets a 2.5x boost? Why?

 

[SSJ2]

The scaling. The perception to Base Gotenks when he first fused was that he was incredible.



It's next to impossible to read this and come to the conclusion that Gotenks was what, barely stronger than SSJ Goten/Trunks?

 

[Power Level Guy]

It's next to impossible to read this and come to the conclusion that Gotenks was what, barely stronger than SSJ Goten/Trunks?

That's fine, but what's this got to do with 50x? Shouldn't you just make Base Gotenks strong and then give him a 50x boost on top?

 

[SSJ2]

That's fine, but what's this got to do with 50x? Shouldn't you just make Base Gotenks strong and then give him a 50x boost on top?

Because SSJ Gotenks pre is never implied to be eons ahead of SSJ3 Goku. He wouldn't need to be tested if he was.

 

[SIAD]

Gotenks Base (Pre) seemed to be an impressively strong character, but still far below Goku SSJ3 and Fat Boo. Then Gotenks SSJ (Pre) does not seem to be much superior to Goku SSJ3.

Also Gotenks SSJ3 would not be multiple tens of times stronger than Goku SSJ3, even though his Base form would be >>> Goku SSJ3.

También en BoS, Goku SSJ2 es > Ultimate Gohan y Goku Base todavía no es tan poderoso como Fat Boo.

As for Vegetto, I like not to nerf his SSJ multiplier, to have SBV1 >>> Super Vegetto >= Baby Vegeta > Goku SSJ3 (Baby) >>>>> Goku Base (Baby) > Baby Gohan SSJ > Gohan SSJ (Baby) >> Rildo Base > Gohan Boo >= Vegetto Base > Gohan Base (Baby) > Ultimate Gohan.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Because SSJ Gotenks pre is never implied to be eons ahead of SSJ3 Goku. He wouldn't need to be tested if he was.

So you believe a Super Saiyan can get a 20x reduction in power and no one makes a comment about it? Ever?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Also in BoS, Goku SSJ2 is > Ultimate Gohan and Goku Base is still not as powerful as Fat Boo.

Why SSJ2 > Gohan?

 

[SIAD]

Why SSJ2 > Gohan?

Vegeta in Episode 2 of DBS calls himself number 2. At that time AT hadn't even thought about DB Daima and that Vegeta would have SSJ3. Therefore, both Goku and Vegeta SSJ2 in BoS are stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

With the new material included, we could say that Vegeta has SSJ3 in BoS, but he didn't use it because he forgot that he had the DB Daima form and everything or he simply knew that in SSJ3 he couldn't do anything either and he didn't waste time transforming. Piccolo also didn't waste time taking off his heavy clothes against Beerus, he simply arrived and attacked him.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta in Episode 2 of DBS calls himself number 2. At that time AT hadn't even thought about DB Daima and that Vegeta would have SSJ3. Therefore, both Goku and Vegeta SSJ2 in BoS are stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

Vegeta retroactively has Super Saiyan 3 now though.

With the new material included, we could say that Vegeta has SSJ3 in BoS, but he didn't use it because he forgot that he had the DB Daima form and everything or he simply knew that in SSJ3 he couldn't do anything either and he didn't waste time transforming. Piccolo also didn't waste time taking off his heavy clothes against Beerus, he simply arrived and attacked him.

Yeah, exactly.


But yeah, I see your point. Although, I don't know how much stronger I'd want Goku > Gohan. It's an argument from silence, but no one is counting on Goku to save the day. The way Piccolo reacts when Gohan gets taken out tells me Goku couldn't do that.

 

[SIAD]

Beerus defeated Ultimate Gohan with extreme ease, a difference tremendously superior to 5x.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Beerus defeated Ultimate Gohan with extreme ease, a difference tremendously superior to 5x.

Beerus did nothing to Gohan that couldn't have been done with a 2x increase though.

 

[SIAD]

What Beerus did to Goku SSJ3, he could do being about 5x stronger than him, however, Goku knew that not even Vegetto SSJ3 could defeat him.

 

[SSJ2]

So you believe a Super Saiyan can get a 20x reduction in power and no one makes a comment about it? Ever?

In the context of fusion it kind of makes sense, especially if going by the Base fusion > strongest power idea. The fusion is already so powerful that a weaker SSJ doesn't matter.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah, I'm having a hard time combatting the logic. It's sound. Umm, other than going against status quo type of arguments which aren't the strongest.

Let's see if I can jam you up with some other stuff though.

Are you ok with...

Base Gotenks >>>>> Android 35 (Fusion of 17/18)



Because if fusion is exponential and it's not that SSJ is weaker, but Base is stronger, that means powers around the Base Saiyan level will be blown out by the Base Fusion.

So put it this way to make it even simpler.

If Goten and Trunks don't have SSJ and fuse, their base fusion would be tremendously weaker than their Base Fusion if they had the Super Saiyan transformation.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It’s not that fusion is exponential, more like it’s a complete clusterfuck. The slightiest of differences could change everything.

I’ve come to terms with fusion being a random, umpredictable boost over base. Including SSJ forms is chaotic and makes no sense.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It’s not that fusion is exponential, more like it’s a complete clusterfuck. The slightiest of differences could change everything.

Well it has to be exponential. Otherwise you can't get Base Gogeta > Blue Gogeta. So long as it's always progressing upwards, it's fine. That's what exponential means.

I’ve come to terms with fusion being a random, umpredictable boost over base. Including SSJ forms is chaotic and makes no sense.

This is illogical. Fusion is proven to be exponential and based on the top power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well it has to be exponential. Otherwise you can't get Base Gogeta > Blue Gogeta. So long as it's always progressing upwards, it's fine. That's what exponential means.

You’ll get a lot of people thinking you’re defending that AxB thing lol.

This is illogical. Fusion is proven to be exponential and based on the top power.

No, it can only be one of the two. If it’s exponential and based on ToP power, then (Base Gogeta > SSJB) >>>>>> (Base Vegetto > SSJ3). This is not true since Base Gogeta ~ SSJB.

Let’s lay out every fusion ever and see if your theory holds up. I think I have a basic idea of the gaps in this one.

 

[Power Level Guy]

No, it can only be one of the two. If it’s exponential and based on ToP power, then (Base Gogeta > SSJB) >>>>>> (Base Vegetto > SSJ3). This is not true since Base Gogeta ~ SSJB.

It has to be. If it's exponential, it has to be based on top power. You can't have exponential and not have top power. Because then those who rival the top power would be way stronger than those who transform to top power.

 

[SSJ2]

Are you ok with...

Base Gotenks >>>>> Android 35 (Fusion of 17/18)



Because if fusion is exponential and it's not that SSJ is weaker, but Base is stronger, that means powers around the Base Saiyan level will be blown out by the Base Fusion.

So put it this way to make it even simpler.

If Goten and Trunks don't have SSJ and fuse, their base fusion would be tremendously weaker than their Base Fusion if they had the Super Saiyan transformation.

So you're saying that without Super Saiyan, Base Gotenks would be around 35's level given the Base kids are close to 18, right? I'd agree with that. It definitely gives credence to the idea that fusion is based on the strongest power.

 

[Power Level Guy]

So you're saying that without Super Saiyan, Base Gotenks would be around 35's level given the Base kids are close to 18, right? I'd agree with that. It definitely gives credence to the idea that fusion is based on the strongest power.

Exactly. But if they do have SSJ, that means Base Gotenks >> Android 35. And this is why Base Gotenks >> KibitoShin.