Gap between Frost over Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) vs Gap between Cell Semi Perfect (Initial) vs Android # 16?

[SIAD]

Frost and Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) of ToP Manga.

  Which gap is larger?

 

[GSM123]

The gap gap between Frost and Kikoho is obviously bigger. While Tenshinhan might have improved his Kikoho through the decade, I doubt it has became strong enough to a point where he can beat even 2nd form Cell.

 

[SIAD]

Humans in the ToP did not appear to be insignificant compared to the Base Saiyans. Everyone dodged Magetta's blows.

  And it goes without saying that Tenshinhan knew the power of Frost (Universe Tournament 6 vs 7) and thought that with his Shin Kikoho he could hurt him.

 

[The Supreme Being]

I dont think that Tenshinhan is very different from what it was in Android Arc, and in the case that he is now a Base Goku level fighter thats not relevant because 2nd form Cell is stronger than Base Goku in my opinion, but I still think that no human surpassed Namek 1st form Freeza.

 

[SIAD]

I'm very interested in your answer [mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Most likely the gap between the Kikoho and Frost. Even after taking it, Frost commented on how the human trio really was weak, which likely cements Ten's Kikoho as still being below Base Goku, considering the slight praise he received when fighting Frost in the U6 tournament. Considering Frost's true form is far closer to SSJ tier than Base tier, the gap would need to be far greater than what's necessary for Cell and #16.

 

[SIAD]

Most likely the gap between the Kikoho and Frost. Even after taking it, Frost commented on how the human trio really was weak, which likely cements Ten's Kikoho as still being below Base Goku, considering the slight praise he received when fighting Frost in the U6 tournament. Considering Frost's true form is far closer to SSJ tier than Base tier, the gap would need to be far greater than what's necessary for Cell and #16.

Tenshinhan use the Kikoho or Shin Kikoho?

 

[GSM123]

Humans in the ToP did not appear to be insignificant compared to the Base Saiyans. Everyone dodged Magetta's blows.

  And it goes without saying that Tenshinhan knew the power of Frost (Universe Tournament 6 vs 7) and thought that with his Shin Kikoho he could hurt him.

They don’t appear to be any significant to Base Saiyans either. Kuririn admits he’s been slacking off and Goku says 18 is stronger than Kuririn.

Everyone also dodged Cell’s blast to the Cell Games arena… I wouldn’t say that’s a reliable feat as much as a way of keeping them in the story.

 

[SIAD]

It may be, but my new question is whether Tenshinhan used the Kikoho or Shin Kikoho against Frost?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Tenshinhan use the Kikoho or Shin Kikoho?

The Viz translation translates it as "Chi Kung Pao", which is the Chinese equivalent of Kikoho, so just the regular version.

Everyone also dodged Cell’s blast to the Cell Games arena… I wouldn’t say that’s a reliable feat as much as a way of keeping them in the story.

A casual attack meant to keep others at bay =/= A punch actively attempting to defeat the fighters present

 

[GSM123]

Probably the Shin Kikoho. I think it has replaced the original Kikoho, just like the Super Kamehameha replaced the regular Kamehameha.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think it has replaced the original Kikoho, just like the Super Kamehameha replaced the regular Kamehameha.

Possibly. After all, Ten constantly spams what he refers to as the Shin Kikoho in the anime ToP, despite executing it exactly like the regular version.

 

[SIAD]

I think it has replaced the original Kikoho, just like the Super Kamehameha replaced the regular Kamehameha.

Possibly. After all, Ten constantly spams what he refers to as the Shin Kikoho in the anime ToP, despite executing it exactly like the regular version.

Then Tenshinhan used the Shin Kikoho. What multiplier would you give that Shin Kikoho that I use in the ToP? Will it be as big as in DBZ?

 

[GSM123]

A casual attack meant to keep others at bay =/= A punch actively attempting to defeat the fighters present

It wasn’t meant to keep others at bay, Cell’s intentions were to destroy the ring. He didn’t really care if anyone down there died or not.

An attack trying to eliminate them… Like the full power blast SSJ Trunks fired on the Androids at Gero’s lab? You know, which Kuririn and Tenshinhan dodged as well. I don’t think you can take that feat seriously without implying the humans have speed comparable to Magetta.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Then Tenshinhan used the Shin Kikoho. What multiplier would you give that Shin Kikoho that I use in the ToP? Will it be as big as in DBZ?

Anime-wise, probably not, given he was also treat as relevant enough to be a sparring partner for Gohan and Piccolo so he shouldn't be dozens of times weaker. Manga-wise, it may very well be, given Ten's lack of other major strength feats.

It wasn’t meant to keep others at bay, Cell’s intentions were to destroy the ring. He didn’t really care if anyone down there died or not.

Thought you might be referring to something else, but I wouldn't say this is much of a great example when considering it wouldn't really take much to destroy the ring.

An attack trying to eliminate them… Like the full power blast SSJ Trunks fired on the Androids at Gero’s lab? You know, which Kuririn and Tenshinhan dodged as well. I don’t think you can take that feat seriously without implying the humans have speed comparable to Magetta.

That's a pretty good example, especially considering scaling from Kaioken should make Kuririn leagues slower than SSJ Trunks. I concede that the speed feat isn't the most accurate indicator of their strength.

 

[SIAD]

Then Tenshinhan used the Shin Kikoho. What multiplier would you give that Shin Kikoho that I use in the ToP? Will it be as big as in DBZ?

Anime-wise, probably not, given he was also treat as relevant enough to be a sparring partner for Gohan and Piccolo so he shouldn't be dozens of times weaker. Manga-wise, it may very well be, given Ten's lack of other major strength feats.

It wasn’t meant to keep others at bay, Cell’s intentions were to destroy the ring. He didn’t really care if anyone down there died or not.

Thought you might be referring to something else, but I wouldn't say this is much of a great example when considering it wouldn't really take much to destroy the ring.

An attack trying to eliminate them… Like the full power blast SSJ Trunks fired on the Androids at Gero’s lab? You know, which Kuririn and Tenshinhan dodged as well. I don’t think you can take that feat seriously without implying the humans have speed comparable to Magetta.

That's a pretty good example, especially considering scaling from Kaioken should make Kuririn leagues slower than SSJ Trunks. I concede that the speed feat isn't the most accurate indicator of their strength.

Then Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) >> Krillin> = Roshi >>> Tenshinhan. All of the Top Manga. Is that chain good for you?

 

[The Supreme Being]

Then Tenshinhan used the Shin Kikoho. What multiplier would you give that Shin Kikoho that I use in the ToP? Will it be as big as in DBZ?

Anime-wise, probably not, given he was also treat as relevant enough to be a sparring partner for Gohan and Piccolo so he shouldn't be dozens of times weaker. Manga-wise, it may very well be, given Ten's lack of other major strength feats.

It wasn’t meant to keep others at bay, Cell’s intentions were to destroy the ring. He didn’t really care if anyone down there died or not.

Thought you might be referring to something else, but I wouldn't say this is much of a great example when considering it wouldn't really take much to destroy the ring.

An attack trying to eliminate them… Like the full power blast SSJ Trunks fired on the Androids at Gero’s lab? You know, which Kuririn and Tenshinhan dodged as well. I don’t think you can take that feat seriously without implying the humans have speed comparable to Magetta.

That's a pretty good example, especially considering scaling from Kaioken should make Kuririn leagues slower than SSJ Trunks. I concede that the speed feat isn't the most accurate indicator of their strength.

Then Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) >> Krillin> = Roshi >>> Tenshinhan. All of the Top Manga. Is that chain good for you?

Why do you think Roshi is stronger than Tenshinhan?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Then Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) >> Krillin> = Roshi >>> Tenshinhan. All of the Top Manga. Is that chain good for you?

Anime-wise, yes. Manga-wise, there's no reason to suggest the status-quo has changed between the humans, so Shin Kikoho >>> Kuririn > Tenshinhan > Roshi.

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention] I will add in terms of the humans' feats there is Roshi knocking Kahseral back, who's above the Pride Troopers that made Goku go SSJ, though I could understand if chalking it up to the same Super "logic" that allow laser guns to damage Universe busters

 

[The Supreme Being]

who's above the Pride Troopers that made Goku go SSJ

Kahseral was not one of them? I don't think Kahseral is anything special among his group and Roshi didn't defeat him for being stronger.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Soldierofficial[/mention] Kahseral is the captain of the Pride Troopers. He might be pretty strong if we take ranking as a factor.

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] not necessarily DBS logic, more like Roshi’s skillz that also helped him dodge Jiren. Kahseral even said his PL was “Low as dirt” before being eliminated.

A better feat would be Roshi and Tenshinhan fending off Frost’s attacks and Roshi implying he could have handles Frost on his own, though I’d still chalk it up to skill nonetheless. A producer of the anime has explained that the humans were chosen by Toriyama because they would balance things a bit, relying on strategy rather than transformations.